Why should people be forced to get vaccinated in order to protect others who choose not to get vaccinated??

chris155au

Active member
Absolutely. Especially, if these other people are being paid to provide that service to others. If someone(regardless of race) comes to your home, and demands that you provide them with tea and biscuits, do you have the right to refuse that service? Of course you do. But if you go to a hospital injured, do they have the right to be refused service for bigoted reasons?
No, not at all, because the government is in control of the health system. So hospitals cannot deny service to someone for almost ANY reason, not just for bigoted reasons. In the same way that a utility company cannot deny service. This is because these are essential services. The slight caveat being that a private hospital can deny services for insurance reasons. This would obviously be more of a problem in the US than here. However, would you put hospitals and utility companies in the same box as a bakery for example? Do you have the right to the services of a baker?

So in a population of 26M people, your chances of being infected(based on the current infection rate) is just a probability of 2 in 10K(0.0002) per year.

What's the math on this?

The odds of being in a motor vehicle accident(based on the number of insurance claims) is a probability of 5 in 100 drivers(0.056 x no. of years driving). So a probability of 0.0002(Covid-19) vs. a probability of 0.06(traffic accident)..., well you do the math!
How do you get to 0.056?

No, what your original comment was, "Is there a SINGLE Republican proposing this sort of stuff?
Yes, which is a question.

I follow US politics VERY closely, and I haven't heard of any.".
Which is a personal statement.

I guess you needed to define stuff first! In either case, you simply assumed that if no one could disprove your truth claim, that it must be correct.
The above question and personal statement is NOT a "truth claim!"

The point was, that it is YOU who must prove it, since you are the one who said it. To most people this is just your own confirmation bias, supported only by suppositions and speculations. But, in reality, it will take an actual proposed policy, or a vote on the floor to support your claims. But I am more than confident, that there will be a few Republicans voting along with many Democrats for a vaccine mandate.
Sure, but again, there is not one single republican who has expressed their desire for a vaccine mandate. It is ENTIRELY possible that every single Republican politician in the land secretly desires vaccine mandates. However, this would mean NOTHING unless it translates into ACTUAL policy like the policy in New York City! Again, if you are unable to name any, then so far, New York City type vaccine mandates are specifically a Democrat policy. Simple!

What? The crack is becoming bigger. First you are claiming that NOT ONE Republican is proposing, or in favor of a vaccine mandate. And, now you are claiming that you are not sure if even ONE Republican may vote yes to a vaccine mandate? I'm confused.
The problem seems to be that you are misunderstanding what it means for someone to express their desire for something. Keyword: "EXPRESS!" Just because someone believes in something, and would vote in favour of it, how does that mean that they are expressing it unless they actually EXPRESS it?

Wow! what a deflection!! I almost got whiplash with that one. Context please!
We're both against forced vaccinations. I believe that people should have the freedom to refuse the vaccine. You agree surely!

I thought that America had moved on a little bit since slavery and Jim Crow. Perhaps I'm wrong.
You are. And most people of non color would say that.
It's VERY simple: America HAS DEFINITELY moved on from SLAVERY and JIM CROW! To say otherwise is frankly INSANE! By saying otherwise you are diminishing all of the gains which black people have fought to achieve, as if it counts for NOTHING! ALOT of black people would be MOST offended by this!

You can't change a person's core beliefs and attitudes.
If you actually think that the percentage of Americans who are racist today is the same as the percentage of Americans who were racist during slavery and Jim Crow, then you really are insane and I really don't know what to say to you.

If there were no laws, civil resistance, or the normalcy that you refer to, nothing would have changed.
Yes, "civil resistance" was the key. We saw this prior to the Civil Rights Act with the 1960 Greensboro sit-ins, where the Woolworths Company department store chain removed its policy of racial segregation without government intervention.

The simple answer is, that people ignored the civil and Constitutional rights of POC. Hence why the Jim Crow laws, the segregation laws, the Black Codes, the Separate but Equal policies, Blacks NOT allowed to own homes or property, suppression on the Black votes, and the systematic inequality in the American Democracy. This treatment of POC had been happening before, and after the Civil Rights Act of 1866(to protect Black Americans against racial discrimination).
After the Civil Rights Act of 1866, but what about after the Civil Rights Act of 1964?
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
No, not at all, because the government is in control of the health system. So hospitals cannot deny service to someone for almost ANY reason, not just for bigoted reasons. In the same way that a utility company cannot deny service. This is because these are essential services. The slight caveat being that a private hospital can deny services for insurance reasons. This would obviously be more of a problem in the US than here. However, would you put hospitals and utility companies in the same box as a bakery for example? Do you have the right to the services of a baker?




What's the math on this?



How do you get to 0.056?



Yes, which is a question.



Which is a personal statement.



The above question and personal statement is NOT a "truth claim!"



Sure, but again, there is not one single republican who has expressed their desire for a vaccine mandate. It is ENTIRELY possible that every single Republican politician in the land secretly desires vaccine mandates. However, this would mean NOTHING unless it translates into ACTUAL policy like the policy in New York City! Again, if you are unable to name any, then so far, New York City type vaccine mandates are specifically a Democrat policy. Simple!



The problem seems to be that you are misunderstanding what it means for someone to express their desire for something. Keyword: "EXPRESS!" Just because someone believes in something, and would vote in favour of it, how does that mean that they are expressing it unless they actually EXPRESS it?



We're both against forced vaccinations. I believe that people should have the freedom to refuse the vaccine. You agree surely!





It's VERY simple: America HAS DEFINITELY moved on from SLAVERY and JIM CROW! To say otherwise is frankly INSANE! By saying otherwise you are diminishing all of the gains which black people have fought to achieve, as if it counts for NOTHING! ALOT of black people would be MOST offended by this!



If you actually think that the percentage of Americans who are racist today is the same as the percentage of Americans who were racist during slavery and Jim Crow, then you really are insane and I really don't know what to say to you.



Yes, "civil resistance" was the key. We saw this prior to the Civil Rights Act with the 1960 Greensboro sit-ins, where the Woolworths Company department store chain removed its policy of racial segregation without government intervention.



After the Civil Rights Act of 1866, but what about after the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

I afraid that you are still not addressing any of the points that I've raised, or examples that I have posited. You are still answering questions with questions, creating your own straw man, misrepresenting my points, avoiding your burden of proof, and still sending me down one rabbit-hole after another. I was really hoping for a more honest discourse, and a free exchange of ideas. But clearly no matter what evidence I deposit, examples that I demonstrate, or logic that I provide, this conversation will always be a one-way conversation. Your argument will only be about knit-picking my points, or about questionable semantics.

So, if you think that people are more likely to catch Covid-19 than be involved in a traffic accident then that is your belief. If you believe that it is morally and ethically correct for people to discriminate against others for bigoted reasons, that is also your belief. If you think that because it is unfashionable, or bad for business, that racism and bigotry does not exist today, well again that is your belief. If you believe that because ONE democratic governor in ONE city wants vaccines to be mandatory, that every democrat will want the same thing. Well, again that is your belief.

I clearly disagree with you, for all the obvious reasons. And, since you keep avoiding the points I've raised, and keep answering my questions with questions, I don't think you really believe what you are saying. But it does get attention.

So let us just agree to disagree?
 

chris155au

Active member
I afraid that you are still not addressing any of the points that I've raised, or examples that I have posited.
Except I ABSOLUTELY have.

You are still answering questions with questions,
Nope, I didn't do that ONCE in my last reply. Questions formed
PART of my reply sections, but not entirely.

creating your own straw man, misrepresenting my points, avoiding your burden of proof, and still sending me down one rabbit-hole after another.
Stating facts is NOT sending you down a rabbit hole. FACTS such as this: not one single republican has expressed their desire for a vaccine mandate.

So, if you think that people are more likely to catch Covid-19 than be involved in a traffic accident then that is your belief.
I never said that. I was just asking where you got your numbers from, but you are obviously not able to tell me for some reason.

If you believe that it is morally and ethically correct for people to discriminate against others for bigoted reasons, that is also your belief. If you think that because it is unfashionable, or bad for business, that racism and bigotry does not exist today, well again that is your belief.
You're a TOTAL hypocrite saying that I am misrepresenting your points when you now accuse me of believing "that it is morally and ethically correct for people to discriminate against others for bigoted reasons" and accusing me of saying that it's "unfashionable, or bad for business, that racism and bigotry does not exist today." The REALITY is that I have said the EXACT opposite, AGREEING with you when you said that it was "morally", and "ethically arrogant and irreprehensible."

If you believe that because ONE democratic governor in ONE city wants vaccines to be mandatory, that every democrat will want the same thing. Well, again that is your belief.
Yet MORE misrepresention of my points! At NO point have I said that every democrat will want the same thing! My point is VERY clear and anyone with two brain cells to rub together SHOULD be able to comprehend it with no issue: if you are unable to name any Republican politicians specifically CALLING FOR A VACCINE MANDATE, then so far, New York City type vaccine mandates are specifically a Democrat policy! IT REALLY COULD NOT BE MORE SIMPLE THAN THAT! Look, I understand why it might be a bit uncomfortable to think about the possibility of identifying more with the Republicans on a particular subject - I get why that might be a bit CHILLING for a liberal like yourself! So if you don't want to discuss the differences between Democrats and Republicans on vaccine mandates, then that's fine. But I'm in the right here, and I think that you know it! By the way, New York City is not the only place where vaccine mandates are happening. There's also California State, Virginia State, Hawaii State, Oregon State. Hmm, now what do all of these States have in common? I wonder! And then of course, the ULTIMATE democrat, that dementia patient Joe Biden, has mandated vaccines for government workers. My point has well and truly been made!
 

chris155au

Active member
He's just getting it wrong on Covid. 62% of the American people have had at least one dose of vaccine.
And?

If you think you're going to get a majority of people to vote for you in a presidential election, you have appear to take this pandemic seriously. I don't think he's doing that.
How is he not taking it seriously? By allowing people to live their lives now that everyone has had the chance to get vaccinated?
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
And?



How is he not taking it seriously? By allowing people to live their lives now that everyone has had the chance to get vaccinated?
Chris, I’m going to answer your DeSantis questions by referring you to one single post on Political Forum. All I’m asking you to read is the very first post - the original post in the thread, not all 97 pages of the thread.

Remember, perception is reality, at least when the public chooses who to vote for.

IT DOESN’T MATTER if the poster is right or wrong! In my opinion, the poster is accurate in describing the PERCEPTION that DeSantis is making for himself.

I think you want to defend DeSantis. I don’t blame you for that, but we are on different wave lengths. Because what I want is to defeat the Democrats in 2024, and to do that, the Republicans must be politically savvy and understand the REALITY of the composition of the electorate.

Here’s that link.

 

johnsmith

Moderator
Staff member
I don’t blame you for that, but we are on different wave lengths. Because what I want is to defeat the Democrats in 2024, and to do that, the Republicans must be politically savvy and understand the REALITY of the composition of the electorate.

have you given up pretending you're a swinging voter yet?
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
have you given up pretending you're a swinging voter yet?
No. I’m an Independent, and if the Democrats put up a candidate who earns my vote, they’ll get it. In the 2020 primaries I voted for a Democrat.

But right now I think they’ve gone off the rails.
 

johnsmith

Moderator
Staff member
No. I’m an Independent, and if the Democrats put up a candidate who earns my vote, they’ll get it. In the 2020 primaries I voted for a Democrat.

you may have once been an independent, but you're not an independent now no matter how much you lie to yourself ... you've already admitted you will vote rethuglican despite not knowing who their candidate is and despite them not releasing any actual policies for the next election

give up the pretense Seth
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
you may have once been an independent, but you're not an independent now no matter how much you lie to yourself ... you've already admitted you will vote rethuglican despite not knowing who their candidate is and despite them not releasing any actual policies for the next election

give up the pretense Seth
Yes, I think this present crop of Democrats are harmful to the country. Right now, I don’t want them to win. I want them to lose because they are doing all the wrong things.

I am an Independent because there are things about the Republicans I don’t like and I won’t support.

And if someday in the future the Democrats come to their senses, I’ll support them with my vote for a good candidate. Again, I voted for a Democrat in the 2020 presidential primary in my state.
 

Squire

Active member
Seth, you are not an independent. You are extremist right-wing because you cannot accept democratic rule by Democrats after the voters have made their choice.
 

johnsmith

Moderator
Staff member
And if someday in the future the Democrats come to their senses,
you mean if they become more conservative and more like the republicans you wish they were? Nah, thats not how it works Seth, you're a rusted on consevative ... you just don't seem to care what label the conservatives give their party
 

chris155au

Active member
Chris, I’m going to answer your DeSantis questions by referring you to one single post on Political Forum. All I’m asking you to read is the very first post - the original post in the thread, not all 97 pages of the thread.

Remember, perception is reality, at least when the public chooses who to vote for.

IT DOESN’T MATTER if the poster is right or wrong! In my opinion, the poster is accurate in describing the PERCEPTION that DeSantis is making for himself.
It seemed that you thought that he is being irresponsible in his COVID policy, and that's why you think that he is making a "mistake." So am I right in thinking that you just think he is making a POLITICAL mistake, but you don't actually have a problem with his COVID policy?
 

chris155au

Active member
Chris, I’m going to answer your DeSantis questions by referring you to one single post on Political Forum. All I’m asking you to read is the very first post - the original post in the thread, not all 97 pages of the thread.
www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/congratulations-ron-desantis-great-job-rolling-eyes-moron.590523/
So this idiot does all he can to curtail any possible epidemiological containment in Florida, and is now governing over the nation's Covid-19 epicenter and the state with the biggest number of new cases. Florida broke its own record, and yesterday posted the biggest daily new cases number since the beginning of the pandemic (21,683).

And we all know why: because he has presidential aspirations and understands that the Trump crowd loooooooves it when he treats the pandemic like it's no big deal.

So, who cares about the lives and health of Floridians if he can snatch the nomination, right? I mean, priorities, priorities...
What about this post?
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
I haven’t researched his policy for myself. I hear snippets on the news. I know that Covid is spreading with record breaking numbers in Florida. He has given the impression that he is an anti-masker.

Hmmmm .... Covid spreading like crazy in his state, anti mask stance. Who else do we know who wouldn’t wear a mask?

Again, “perception is reality” in politics, and if he wants to be a winning presidential candidate someday, he should not act like that other guy.
 

chris155au

Active member
Again, “perception is reality” in politics, and if he wants to be a winning presidential candidate someday, he should not act like that other guy.
Yes, but if making himself a winning presidential candidate requires him to go against his gut - which is to allow Floridians to have freedom - and instead impose all sort of restrictions, then there's a good chance that he's not going to do that. This shows that he is not self-interested.
 

Chuck

Active member
I haven’t read most of the posts but I wish to point out that if a person wishes to work for an employer in Australia, they need to abide by the health and Safety regulations which is supported by the Union Movement!

My understanding as a bush lawyer is that legal precedence was set by mandatory introduction of drug and alcohol testing at a worksite.
It will entitle employers to demand that u need to get vaccinate if u wish to be gainfully employed.

I objected to signing a document stating that I voluntarily took the D&A test……I was told to vacate the site and to reconsider my employment with this company.

They didn’t prevent me in exercising my freedom to move on to another place of employment.

What some people might not be aware off, is that flu injection doesn't prevent u from getting or shedding to the flu others.
 
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