Why should people be forced to get vaccinated in order to protect others who choose not to get vaccinated??

[SethBullock]

My argument is NOT about people who want to take precautions. My argument is with being FORCED to take precautions!

Prior to the wide availability of vaccines, masking and social distancing made sense to me. But, as I have already talked about, now that the vaccines are widely available to all free of charge, and not being vaccinated is a choice, I oppose forced precautions except in certain venues like elder care homes, hospitals, and such.

Also, are there two different death rate for unvaccinated and vaccinated victims?? Please post them. I'm curious why being vaccinated, will make you less likely to be hospitalized or die from Covid-19? I thought that this was only dependent on the condition and strength of our immune system.

I googled the words "vaccinated versus unvaccinated death", and came up with plenty of answers to your question. Here is one of many ...

Unvaccinated People Are 11 Times More Likely To Die Of COVID-19, New Research Finds

The COVID-19 vaccines continue to provide powerful protection, even against the delta variant, the CDC said. It also found that vaccinated people were 10 times less likely to be hospitalized.

www.npr.org

I assume that the reason you are less likely to be hospitalized or die from Covid when you're vaccinated is because the vaccine gives your body the tools it needs to fight off the infection. I'm not saying that most people don't already have that ability, but some people don't. And it also appears that a lot of vaccinated people would have survived the infection even without the vaccination, but their symptoms would have been more serious.

I am not an immunologist or a scientist. I can't explain the scientific reasons why this is. But the bottom line conclusions I can reach are supported by the evidence. It's right there in front of us, and it doesn't take medical/scientific expertise to understand it.

- Vaccinated people have a far lower death rate.
- Vaccinated people have a far lower hospitalization rate.
- Vaccinated people tend to have milder symptoms.

Are there exceptions? Of course. But these are outcomes in the overwhelming number of cases.

I can understand not wanting to be forced to take the vaccine if you don't want it. But what I can't understand is the denial that these statistics are real and that they are pointing directly at a logical belief or conclusion.

 

[Shellandshilo1956]

- Vaccinated people have a far lower death rate.
- Vaccinated people have a far lower hospitalization rate.
- Vaccinated people tend to have milder symptoms.

Seth, please think for a moment, I want you to think about what you are saying. It all sounds very logical. BUT IT AIN'T!!

Vaccinated people have a far lower death rate, hospital rate, and have milder symptoms. Therefore, if you are vaccinated, you will have a lower death rate, hospital rate, and have milder symptoms. WHY? BECAUSE, vaccinated people have far lower death rates, hospitalization rates, and have milder symptoms. Why, because...

Why can't you see that this is just a circular argument/begging the question? Based on ignorance. What is the causal link between dying, not being hospitalized, or having milder symptoms? If you don't know, then you can't make these conclusions. The article also leaves this out. Always be leery of any comments that start with the conclusion as its premise. Numbers are only indicators. You need to explain WHY the numbers indicate any of this. Did these people die because they lacked these vaccine-induced antibodies? Did these people die, because they were in very high risk groups, who were advised NOT to be vaccinated? Did these people die, because they were on immunosuppressant drugs, or were battling other chronic illnesses? There are many reasons why people die from the complications of this disease. And, they may have nothing to do with whether they were vaccinated or not. Or, were in hospitals, or had milder symptoms.

I am not an immunologist or a scientist. I can't explain the scientific reasons why this is. But the bottom line conclusions I can reach are supported by the evidence. It's right there in front of us, and it doesn't take medical/scientific expertise to understand it.

Lets assume that 100K died of Covid-19. 99K people who died were unvaccinated. 1K people who died WERE vaccinated. Does this mean that the unvaccinated people died because they were unvaccinated? And, that the vaccinated people died because they were vaccinated? Can't you see just how silly this sounds? Without having some basic understanding of how the immune system works, I'm clearly wasting my time.

Clearly you don't understand the immune system, how it works, or what vaccines are and actually do. And, yes, it does give the immune system early warning against pathogens. But it doesn't stop anyone from becoming infected, dying from the infection, spreading the infection, or even having milder symptoms. This all depends on the strength/condition of our immune system. Nothing else. And, everyone's is slightly different.

Clearly you don't want to know. You only want to believe that you know. But at least you agree that people have the right to decide what goes into their own body. Without being shamed, ridiculed, coerced, or forced. That's at least a start.

Tell me. Do they still have frozen/fridge tamales over there? It is one of the foods I really miss.

 

[SethBullock]

Seth, please think for a moment, I want you to think about what you are saying. It all sounds very logical. BUT IT AIN'T!!

Vaccinated people have a far lower death rate, hospital rate, and have milder symptoms. Therefore, if you are vaccinated, you will have a lower death rate, hospital rate, and have milder symptoms. WHY? BECAUSE, vaccinated people have far lower death rates, hospitalization rates, and have milder symptoms. Why, because...

Why can't you see that this is just a circular argument/begging the question? Based on ignorance. What is the causal link between dying, not being hospitalized, or having milder symptoms? If you don't know, then you can't make these conclusions. The article also leaves this out. Always be leery of any comments that start with the conclusion as its premise. Numbers are only indicators. You need to explain WHY the numbers indicate any of this. Did these people die because they lacked these vaccine-induced antibodies? Did these people die, because they were in very high risk groups, who were advised NOT to be vaccinated? Did these people die, because they were on immunosuppressant drugs, or were battling other chronic illnesses? There are many reasons why people die from the complications of this disease. And, they may have nothing to do with whether they were vaccinated or not. Or, were in hospitals, or had milder symptoms.



Lets assume that 100K died of Covid-19. 99K people who died were unvaccinated. 1K people who died WERE vaccinated. Does this mean that the unvaccinated people died because they were unvaccinated? And, that the vaccinated people died because they were vaccinated? Can't you see just how silly this sounds? Without having some basic understanding of how the immune system works, I'm clearly wasting my time.

Clearly you don't understand the immune system, how it works, or what vaccines are and actually do. And, yes, it does give the immune system early warning against pathogens. But it doesn't stop anyone from becoming infected, dying from the infection, spreading the infection, or even having milder symptoms. This all depends on the strength/condition of our immune system. Nothing else. And, everyone's is slightly different.

Clearly you don't want to know. You only want to believe that you know. But at least you agree that people have the right to decide what goes into their own body. Without being shamed, ridiculed, coerced, or forced. That's at least a start.

Tell me. Do they still have frozen tamales over there? It is one of the foods I really miss.

Yes, frozen tamales are available in the grocery store.

Look ... You can fight for the right of the individual to make their own health choices. I actually have a lot of sympathy for that.

On the other hand, let's not be willfully ignorant. Let's not get so invested in our point of view that we ignore the facts. The numbers do matter, Shell.

Clearly, virtually without question, vaccinated people are far less likely to require hospitalization or die from Covid than do unvaccinated people. That's just a fact.

In the U.S. some 56% of the population is fully vaccinated. If the vaccine had no effect on hospitalization and death rates, wouldn't it follow that 56% of the hospitalizations and deaths were of vaccinated people? That would be the logical outcome if the vaccine was useless and had no effect. But that is not the outcome. The outcome is that unvaccinated people are 11 times more likely to die from Covid than are vaccinated people. Those are the facts.

I do not see how you can possibly not make the linkage between vaccination and outcomes.

 

[johnsmith]

The outcome is that unvaccinated people are 11 times more likely to die from Covid than are vaccinated people.

i read a report last week (or maybe the week prior) on a study out of Israel where a large portion of their population has now had a third booster shot. It found that those with the third booster shot were 65x LESS likely to end up in hospital with covid than those who had not been immunized. That's a HUGE difference.

 

[Shellandshilo1956]

Yes, frozen tamales are available in the grocery store.

Thank you.

Look ... You can fight for the right of the individual to make their own health choices. I actually have a lot of sympathy for that.

On the other hand, let's not be willfully ignorant. Let's not get so invested in our point of view that we ignore the facts. The numbers do matter, Shell.

I should NOT have to fight for the rights of individuals to make their own health choices. Mandatory, or forcible vaccinations, should not invoke your sympathy, it should invoke your anger. I am not so invested in my point of view, that I am ignoring the numbers(whatever they may be), or is claiming that the numbers don't matter(distraction). But you are certainly ignoring the context, and everything that is relevant to those numbers. This is just top-down logic, where you simply choose which facts you want, and which facts you want to ignore(confirmation bias). I know that you really believe that you are right. And, in the case of choice you are. But taking numbers out of context, making unsupported assumptions, avoiding questions, and making unsupported truth claims, is the very definition of being willfully ignorant.

I won't bother asking you how any of those stats were arrived at. Because you don't have a clue, or care! But, let me ask you, "Why were these people in the hospital?" "Were they asked at the desk, if they were unvaccinated, and logged?". "Did they come there to be tested?". "Did they come there to be vaccinated?". "Were these unvaccinated people in hospital for some other unrelated illness?". "Were these people actually admitted for some serious "Covid-19 treatment?". Do you know what any of these numbers are? Never mind! You don't, or care! It is only your belief that matters, and anything that will fit it, right?

"11 times more likely", "far less likely"!! Are these your examples of fact? Sad! And, NO, it does not follow, or is even remotely logical or consistent. Especially, if you blindly ignore all the other variables. Or, lack even the most basic understanding of the function of the immune system, pathogens, vaccines, or an understanding of basic stats. This ignorance only makes you an easy mark. Who will quickly believe any pile of shit that the government, and Big Pharma shovels down your throat. Maybe it is YOU, who have too much invested, to begin to think for yourself anymore!

This is the same argument that is made to prove the existence of God(billions believe that He exists, therefore He must exist). As well as the same arguments being made by Creationists, flat-earthers, and anti-evolutionists. So you are in good company, with this argument from ignorance. And, not even God Himself is going to change their minds.

Since you will only dismiss, or ignore any facts/questions that might give some context to the numbers, I won't waste both our times.

It is the people who have stood up to the stupidity of these morons in power, that have earned my respect. These are the true Australians. These are the people who know, that the minute you comply with this nonsense, is the minute you give-up your power to resist. This, and the vote, are the ONLY power that citizens have against a government. Once we give these up, we become sheep. These true Australians are not just sheep bitching about what the government is doing wrong. They are the true Australians, who are reminding these morons just who they work for. Not cowards who hide behind their own silly constructed ever-changing rationales.

Sit. Stay. Good Boy.

 

[chris155au]

And now, please indicate where it has been proposed to instigate a mandate OTHER than in that situation…?

https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/information-workers-required-to-be-vaccinated

 

[Shellandshilo1956]

Now Queensland is closing down its borders to UNVACCINATED AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS. So kiss your Christmas visits to loved ones interstate goodbye, if you are unvaccinated. But since they haven't used the word mandate, I guess it is not really a mandate.

 

[johnsmith]

Now Queensland is closing down its borders to UNVACCINATED AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS

yeah ... if you'rew not vaccinated, fuck off

 

[Shellandshilo1956]

yeah ... if you'rew not vaccinated, fuck off

But John what about the over 90% of the Australian population who are NOT infected, have already recovered, are too young, or have been advised NOT to be vaccinated? How do we justify punishing and discriminating against these people? Should anyone be punished/discriminated against, just for making an informed decision about what goes into their bodies? Regardless if others choose to do so. This sounds very much like a form of social coercion to me.

Are you saying that we should simply do whatever we are told, without question, to whatever the government tells us? Shouldn't you be attacking the argument of people who refuse to be vaccinated? And, not simply the people who refuse to be vaccinated? Why should they be made to suffer the consequences for following the obvious logical, practical, and moral flaws of governmental overreach and privacy intrusions?

Surely you can see where this slippery slope can lead to? Surely you care more about people than the façade you're projecting?

 

[mothra]

But John what about the over 90% of the Australian population who are NOT infected, have already recovered, are too young, or have been advised NOT to be vaccinated? How do we justify punishing and discriminating against these people? Should anyone be punished/discriminated against, just for making an informed decision about what goes into their bodies? Regardless if others choose to do so. This sounds very much like a form of social coercion to me.

Are you saying that we should simply do whatever we are told, without question, to whatever the government tells us? Shouldn't you be attacking the argument of people who refuse to be vaccinated? And, not simply the people who refuse to be vaccinated? Why should they be made to suffer the consequences for following the obvious logical, practical, and moral flaws of governmental overreach and privacy intrusions?

Surely you can see where this slippery slope can lead to? Surely you care more about people than the façade you're projecting?

Sorry Shell, but no matter how may times and how many paragraphs of cyberspace you use up to say the exact same thing, over and over again, it just comes across as hysterics.

Absolute hysterics.

I laughed out loud when you brought feminism and civil rights into it.

Just get vaccinated, wear a mask, keep your distance from people and wash your hands. It's really not that hard.

 

[johnsmith]

But John what about the over 90% of the Australian population who are NOT infected, have already recovered, are too young, or have been advised NOT to be vaccinated?

they can fuck off

 

[chris155au]

www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/rights-and-freedoms/human-rights-considerations-vaccine-passports

From the page:

"Vaccine passports show verified proof of someone’s COVID-19 vaccination status or COVID-19 status (which can be a ‘passport’, or, in some cases, an alternative verifiable form of proof) that is then used as a condition of entry or service.

They are currently being trialled in locations overseas but are yet to be introduced to Australia."

Do you agree that this is TOTAL nonsense? If people are required to "show verified proof" of their "COVID-19 vaccination status" as a "condition of entry or service", then vaccine passports are here already! We just don't call them 'passports!' What a JOKE the Human Rights Commission is!

 

[chris155au]

they can fuck off

Children can "fuck off?"

 

[johnsmith]

Children can "fuck off?"

children aren't required to be vaccinated

 

[chris155au]

children aren't required to be vaccinated

So why the hell did you say that they can fuck off?

 

[Shellandshilo1956]

From the page:

"Vaccine passports show verified proof of someone’s COVID-19 vaccination status or COVID-19 status (which can be a ‘passport’, or, in some cases, an alternative verifiable form of proof) that is then used as a condition of entry or service.

They are currently being trialled in locations overseas but are yet to be introduced to Australia."

Do you agree that this is TOTAL nonsense? If people are required to "show verified proof" of their "COVID-19 vaccination status" as a "condition of entry or service", then vaccine passports are here already! We just don't call them 'passports!' What a JOKE the Human Rights Commission is!

Unfortunately it doesn't matter if Covid-19 passport is a joke or is nonsense. It doesn't matter if these passports are effective, or just another chain of restrictions to control the masses. It doesn't matter if this is just the government over-reacting, over-reaching, blatantly intruding, or basing its policies on distorted or zero scientific evidence. All that matters is that the people remain compliant, ignorant, and indifference. It makes them easier to exploit and confuse.

Any rational person would understand, that if you were the best surgeon in the world, you should not be prevented from operating on any critically ill patient, just because you refuse to be vaccinated. This would never apply as a prerequisite for any job. Your private medical vaccination history, should not be relevant to your employer. I can now imagine Australia as a country, where cops can stop and ask you to produce papers, showing that you are Covid-19 safe.

Regarding human rights violations, these leaders can spin whatever narrative they want. What are you going to do to a country who commits these violations? It is the people who must stand up and say, "This is crazy, and leave our freedoms alone".

United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights Summary: Youth For Human Rights Video

Read a Simplified Version of The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights for Teens and Young Adults. Watch Videos and Learn More About the Fundamental Rights and Privileges That Everyone Has For Being Human.

www.youthforhumanrights.org

Covid-19 passports or certificates only confirm that the person has been vaccinated. That's it!! It does not mean that the bearer is not infected with, or can't transmit Covid-19 to others. In this sense it is a joke. It is also sad, that nothing is going to change the closed minds of the ignorant. These people will never deny or argue over the logic or the truth about the facts. They will simply insult, vilify, and demean you personally. Because that is all they can do in response. Do you know what they did in ancient Egypt, to anyone who tried to expose to the crowd how they were being conned and manipulated? They stoned them to death.

This nonsense began when we first accepted/believed that distancing and wearing masked were both, a practical and logical solution to an impossible problem. After a year, we then compounded this lie, by deciding that our natural immune system needed help to do its job. We have now reached a point where Covid-19 concentration(internment) camps may not be off the tables. People can no longer see the truth, because it is now buried far below the headlines. It is so true, that repetition will always become the truth by default.

All because of a flu virus, that is less lethal than the measles and hepatitis A. And, only slightly more lethal than the mumps and whooping coughs. A disease where 98% of the victims will recover. Whether they are vaccinated or not. Amazing.

 

[johnsmith]

So why the hell did you say that they can fuck off?

probably for the same reason you failed to engage your brain

 

[chris155au]

probably for the same reason you failed to engage your brain

You really do enjoy not making sense don't you!

 

[chris155au]

@Shellandshilo1956 - How would you respond to the argument that without lockdowns and a high vaccination rate, the hospitals will be overwhelmed?

 

[johnsmith]

You really do enjoy not making sense don't you!

engage your brain and it will become crystal clear