Ukraine
- Thread starter HBS Guy
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...uit-syrians-to-fight-in-ukraine-says-pentagon
So Putin must be getting a tad desperate?
Shellandshilo1956
Active member
Posturing, really? Firstly, WHY do you support the US not intervening in this war, by not using its military forces directly? Secondly, if we are arming the Ukrainian military with armament, intelligence, and munitions, then aren't we intervening in their war by proxy?? Thirdly, Wouldn't providing paid mercenaries/volunteers(from other war-mongering, fake-pacifist countries), be COMPLICIT in prolonging the war? Wouldn't this "non-intervention", be COMPLICIT in producing more body bags for both Russian and Ukrainian soldiers? Fourthly, sanctions only hurt the Russia people(that you somehow seem willing to absolve of ANY blame), and NOT THEIR GOVERNMENT LEADERS! And, finally, what legal, international, or treaty agreements, justifies forcing any sovereign countries to bend to your will. Or, YOUR BELIEFS! But, saying that the consequences of their disobedience/resolve is their own fault, is just irresponsible and arrogant. America should really practice what it preaches!
Are you still being hypothetical? Do you really think that today's wars will be only fought in the air, or on the ground?? And, since Russia DOES have the most powerful, and the largest number of nukes, your hypothetical is irrelevant and academic. Also, did the US systematically annihilate the ground forces in Cuba(Bay of Pigs), Korea, Formosa, Samoa, Somalia, Viet Nam, Afghanistan, etc.?? And you really think that the the US(3rd) will destroy the Soviet's ground forces(5th)? But you are just still being hypothetical right?
Firstly, this would NOT happen because of the logistic, cultural, language, and occupational realities, that I have already mentioned. Even hypotheticals should be realistic, reasonable, and plausible. Other wise, we can add superman to the mix! But, most importantly, WE HAVE A FUCKING MILITARY TREATY WITH THESE CONTRIES! Why do you keep ignoring this important distinction? Why don't you use a countries like Nauru, or Granada to make your point? But if Russia did try to take over the world, then I would suggest that we do everything to stop them. But there is a big difference in a policy of non-intervention between two warring countries, and a country trying to take over the world. But you are the one trying to rationalize this biased belief. Not me.
This is sheer arrogance! What are the guarantees that these weapons will NOT be used for OFFENSIVE purposes only? NONE! Just because you call them defensive weapons, DON'T MAKE IT SO!! And whether they are used offensively or defensively, the results will still be the same. MORE FUCKING BODY BAGS FOR BOTH SIDES!!
It's really not that hard to understand. And, you are fear-mongering with hypotheticals and platitudes. My position is based only on common sense, that will result in the least amount of harm. Your position comes from a position that military might is the moral right! And, the irrational belief that you are the world's police. That all countries should be either ingratiating second rate democracies, or insignificant banana republics. Countries like Russia, China, N. Korea, etc., are cultural are political threats, because that is what you want to believe. Even though many have fought alongside America in war.
Another oversimplification, and misrepresentation. In this particular case, I'm saying DON'T GET INVOLVED IN A PROXY WAR WITH RUSSIA! That does not mean that in ALL cases the US should not get involved. There are even diplomatic avenues that can be used. How do you think the Cuban Crisis was aborted. I guess in your mind, Russian was just afraid of the US, right? By all means, provide all the humanitarian aid you want! But, NO MILITARY, NO SANCTIONING, NO MERCS, AND NO THREATS OR HOSTILE RHETORIC! I can't be any more clearer than this.
Well, God help us all if you are wrong. And, if the US and its allies are brought into this war? OOPS?? Will you just keep changing the goal posts, while the world is burning? History will only judge us by the results of our actions, NOT BY THE MEANS OR THE RATIONALE. You are naïve, and just projecting that it is the US that is cowering before a bully and doing nothing. The same inciteful rhetoric that may result in anther unnecessary war. There are only two justifications for war. Self-defense of your own sovereignty, and the self-defense of a treated member's sovereignty. That's it!
So if you want to mischaracterize me as someone who doesn't give a shit about anything that happens in the world, then go for it!! My principles are not based on capitalist/nationalist meaningless platitudes, or from the ego-gratifications I receive from watching too many John Wayne movies. It is not based on the pseudo-sophistry of paid actors, spewing out their staged, rehearsed, and packaged truths. I have seen the realities of wars first hand, and what it does to the human spirit. I have seen the evils that man can do to man. But our eager acceptance of this evil as being justifiable, is a true reflection of the mental health of our society.
This is your straw man!! Or, are you still just being hypothetical?? Anyway, my two cents.
Russia will have a huge problem soon: Rasputitsa
As winter gives way to spring roads will turn into deep mud, good luck moving tanks and especially etc in that bottomless slop!
As winter gives way to spring roads will turn into deep mud, good luck moving tanks and especially etc in that bottomless slop!
Sir Bobby
Active member
Latest thought on Ukraine:
Well the USA did set a precedent that it was OK to invade another country
without United Nations approval. Iraq 2003.
Now we reap what they've sown.
en.wikipedia.org
Well the USA did set a precedent that it was OK to invade another country
without United Nations approval. Iraq 2003.
Now we reap what they've sown.
Legality of the Iraq War - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Sir Bobby
Active member
You watch - one by one we'll all get sucked into WW3.
It's gunna be all on soon:
Russia will get more desperate and Poland will get their military airfields bombed when they give Ukraine jet fighters - that is a NATO country -
so NATO will be drawn into it directly.
1 hr 24 min ago
UK warns Poland that sending fighters to Ukraine may put them into Russia's "direct line of fire"
Defense Secretary Ben Wallace told Sky News on Tuesday that whilst the UK would "support" a Polish choice to supply Ukraine with fighter jets the country should be aware of Russia's warning of "retribution."
The news comes a day after the US Ambassador to NATO Julianne Smith told CNN Chief International Anchor Christiane Amanpour that US officials are discussing with the Polish government the potential for Poland to send MiG-29 Soviet-era fighter jets in support of Ukraine. Smith emphasized that this is a "sovereign decision" for Poland take.
edition.cnn.com
It's gunna be all on soon:
Russia will get more desperate and Poland will get their military airfields bombed when they give Ukraine jet fighters - that is a NATO country -
so NATO will be drawn into it directly.
1 hr 24 min ago
UK warns Poland that sending fighters to Ukraine may put them into Russia's "direct line of fire"
Defense Secretary Ben Wallace told Sky News on Tuesday that whilst the UK would "support" a Polish choice to supply Ukraine with fighter jets the country should be aware of Russia's warning of "retribution."
The news comes a day after the US Ambassador to NATO Julianne Smith told CNN Chief International Anchor Christiane Amanpour that US officials are discussing with the Polish government the potential for Poland to send MiG-29 Soviet-era fighter jets in support of Ukraine. Smith emphasized that this is a "sovereign decision" for Poland take.
Live updates: Russia invades Ukraine
Russia has proposed a new ceasefire starting 10 a.m. Moscow time Tuesday (or 2 a.m. ET) in five Ukrainian cities. Ukraine has yet to formally agree to the proposal. Follow here for live news updates from on the ground in Ukraine.
Because I do not want to get into a shooting war between Russia and the U.S.
Yes.
The primary thing prolonging this war is the Russians invasion. The secondary thing is the Ukrainian military resisting the invasion. And it would appear that the Ukrainians' alternative to prolonging the war is surrender. Would you choose surrender to an invading force? Or would you fight?
That's what happens when you defend your country.
Time will tell.
I think you should be asking Putin that question.
No. It's logical. Actions have consequences, and Putin knew in advance what the consequences were going to be.
I was merely giving my opinion as to the relative capabilities of conventional air/ground forces of the Russians.
Ukraine has no intention of invading Russia. Therefore, Ukraine's weapons will be used to defend Ukraine.
I think the Biden administration, predictably, failed in diplomacy with Russia.
I too am well aware of the realities of war.
I question the position NATO and Biden have taken on Ukraine's intention to join NATO.
But that aside, Russia is carrying out a war of aggression against a nation that was no threat to them. I admire the Ukrainians will to resist them. Most of the world agrees that Russia has no justification for this.
I don't want to fight the Russians over Ukraine. I think that could lead to an escalation that we do not want with a nuclear power. But I don't mind helping the Ukrainians defend their country.
Looks like some Arab fighters are in Ukraine to fight against the Russians:
Bin Ghaleb
@GhalebM0nz1i7
About 450 militants of Arab and foreign nationalities arrived from Idlib Governorate to #Ukraine to participate in the fight against the #Russian forces, just less than 3 days after they left the #Syrian territory, passing through the #Turkish territory. The sources revealed 1/
12:54 AM · Mar 9, 2022·Twitter for Android
https://twitter.com/GhalebM0nz1i7/status/1501202082468147208/retweets
Replying to
@GhalebM0nz1i7
that the number of foreign militants who arrived in #Ukraine from several areas in Idlib and its countryside reached about 150, most of whom belong to nationalities (#Belgian, #French, Chinese, Moroccan, #Tunisian, #Chechen, #British), while the other 300 militants are from 1/3
https://twitter.com/GhalebM0nz1i7
several nationalities. Areas in the countryside of Idlib and Aleppo, most of whom are fighting in the ranks of “Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham” and “Ansar al-Tawhid,” while a smaller number belong to the “Faylaq al-Sham”and “National Liberation Front”who are loyal to the #Turkish army. 1/
https://twitter.com/GhalebM0nz1i7
Regarding the material temptations that were promised to the departing militants, the sources confirmed that the salaries that the #Syrian fighter will receive will range between 1200-1500 dollars, while she denied knowing the size of what foreign militants will receive.
"I think the Biden administration, predictably, failed in diplomacy with Russia"
- Seth
Oh my god. Even this you hang Biden out to dry for? Even after he did such fantaastic work with NATO?
Seth, i accuse you of vengefullness. You're just revisiting everything levelled at Trump straight onto Biden. You are highly partisan.
I'm really sad to see it. I think you are capable of much more than this.
- Seth
Oh my god. Even this you hang Biden out to dry for? Even after he did such fantaastic work with NATO?
Seth, i accuse you of vengefullness. You're just revisiting everything levelled at Trump straight onto Biden. You are highly partisan.
I'm really sad to see it. I think you are capable of much more than this.
Shellandshilo1956
Active member
What? Whether the Ukraine does or doesn't have any intentions of invading Russia, has absolutely nothing to do with how they will use their "defensive" weapons. You and I both know that preemptive attacks are often used in war. All retaliation strikes are also preemptive strikes. Or, do you really believe that the Ukrainian military will only respond when they are attacked first? And, then retaliate by using these "defensive" weapons? Really??? All weapons are defensive, UNTIL THEY ARE USED! And, all wars are acts of aggression. There is no such thing as a defensive war. It is an oxymoron.
Then don't create a proxy war with Russian. Don't make threats to to turn the world against Russia, or supply arms, intelligence, munitions, or even mercs to the Ukrainian army. Provide only diplomatic solutions and humanitarian aid to either, or both sides.
Not sure what you are saying here. You don't blame one boxer for prolonging the bout. YES, by not surrendering to the Russian invaders and defending their sovereignty, they are prolonging this war. And, YES, by not surrendering they are also prolonging this war. It is irrelevant what I would do in this situation. Since I'm not in anyway affected by it. This is a decision for the Ukrainian people to make. NOT a decision to be made by well-meaning foreign interests. Or, by global armament manufacturers, trying to make more bucks out of more body bags. But, if the impossible did happen, and Australia was being invaded by another country, I would definitely never surrender.
I wasn't talking about the the Ukrainian people defending their country. I was talking about the foreign contractors, mercs, and foreign leaders, being complicit in their role of producing MORE body bags for both sides. If these foreign war-mongers would just stay out of it, it would mean LESS body bags, and an early end to the conflict. All they are doing is forcing Putin to become MORE aggressive, and commit more resources. He does want to win the war, and he does want to protect his soldiers. And this would include, warning and attacking anyone who gives any military aid to the enemy. We've seen what the US does to countries that harbor terrorists.
We've already seen who will suffer the most, whenever sanctions are being imposed on any country. The poor!! They won't have access to food, medical supplies, petrol. And, the prices on their gods and services will skyrocket. The wealthy not so much! Also, if America didn't have control over the petrol-dollar at OPEC, they wouldn't be able to sanction a police station in Dubbo!
So if Putin violates international law, then it is okay for other countries to do the same? We are responsible for our own actions, NOT HIS! Are you saying that Russia should bend to the will of the US? Or, to any other country's? Here is a hypothetical. What if Texas decided to secede from the Union today, and form its own independent and sovereign nation. What do you think the federal government would do to stop them? And, what if this new nation of Texas then decided to ask to become a recognized, and full member of NATO? Again, what do you think the federal government would do? Remember the Civil War??
What are these consequences? That if Russia shoots at people in another country, that they might just shoot back? Outside interference also have consequences too. They prolong a conflict that is none of their business. I asked you before. Do you even know why the Russians have invaded the Ukraine? This detail is important, don't you think? It is not simply that "Russia, China, Africa, and N. Korea bad, and the rest of the world good!".
Even great teams may look great on paper. But the real test is what happens on the field. We have seen the failures of the US military, in conflicts involving nations with hardly any ground forces. So why are you of the opinion that the US would annihilate the Russian ground troops? The 5th largest in the world! History doesn't support your opinion. Did you know that the US has NEVER won a war on its own? Even in its War of Independence(Revolutionary War), it received assistance from its allies, France, Spain, Netherland, and Norway.
His position is irrelevant. The Ukraine is NOT a full member of NATO. So he is NOT defending a NATO member, or any NATO sovereignty! So his rhetoric and saber-rattling against Russia is only provocative and threatening.
"If Russia proceeds, we will rally the world,” Biden said, adding that Washington’s allies were ready to impose powerful sanctions that will “undermine Russia’s ability to compete economically and strategically.”.
Member countries
Biden pledges ‘full force’ to defend Americans, NATO allies with Ukraine under Russian threat
President Joe Biden said the United States was prepared to defend NATO members as the crisis on Ukraine's border with Russia intensifies.
It is madness to provoke WWIII. By provoking a country capable of destroying the entire planet! Just stay out of it! Your opinions are your business. But your actions can become everyone's business. There is no moral high ground in a global graveyard!
Real fucking guts! I admit I don’t know what I would do in a similar situation:
The people staying behind in Ukraine, in cities being bombed/bombarded to look after frail parents etc.
If Ukraine was Holland and Mum was there—might I just talk to her via Zoom a couple of times? Thankfully I was never put to that test.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03...tay-in-ukraine-russian-invasion-war/100902036
The people staying behind in Ukraine, in cities being bombed/bombarded to look after frail parents etc.
If Ukraine was Holland and Mum was there—might I just talk to her via Zoom a couple of times? Thankfully I was never put to that test.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03...tay-in-ukraine-russian-invasion-war/100902036
Brave woman ...
A hint of light at the end of the tunnel?
Wasn’t Ukraine a neutral state?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/16/ukraine-russia-war-latest-zelenskiy-says-peace-talks-are-more-realistic-three-eu-leaders-vow-support-on-kyiv-visit-live
Wasn’t Ukraine a neutral state?
Interesting report about Putin turning against his intelligence services. Are we seeing the beginning of the end?
www.foxnews.com
Putin puts Russian spies who scouted Ukraine under house arrest, suggests growing distrust of KGB's successor
Two of members of the FSB who were supposed to have prepped the ground for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, are reportedly under house arrest.
www.foxnews.com
lets hope so ... and sooner rather than later