U.S. Elections

MilesAway

Bongalong
No Seth, we've both demonstrated whu it isn't discussed as you claim. And we've both pointed out to you that you are part of the problem, ifn fact, a very considerable part.

I resent you implying it is us who hamstring dialogue. That is pure projection on your part.
Lol!
 

MilesAway

Bongalong
Oh don't be ridiculous. What a childish load of absolute shit. What is it about you that sees you incapable of assimilating information contrary to your own? Vanity?

You were not told you were getting in the way because you talked about it but because, as has been exhaustively explained to you, you cling on to the misnomer that is a percentage of black men, not gang members. If you fix your fucking terminology, doors will swing open.

More proof you pay absolutely no consideration to what is typed to you.

Pathetic.
Ooh, that good ol pathetic word again.... No less from a feminist princess without sin😆🍔🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿
 

MilesAway

Bongalong
Thing is Mothra, it is not really possible to discuss and thereby persuade.

People MUST experience it for themselves before they'll believe anything that challenges their paradigms/perceptions.
So are you saying the forum should just stop🤔
 

hatty

cynical profane bastard
I think the biggest issue being swept under the carpet is the huge amount of guns involved...."It's my constitutional right to have a Gun though " lets change topic......
fucking this!......x 1000....... signed...... hatty's crap university

but as pink said........... back to the US elections! (and trump being a fat, orange, thick, pussy grabbing grifter, massive sook, and all around fuckwit)
 
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Shellandshilo1956

Active member
@mothra @Shellandshilo1956

I am not the one who bought up the topic of murder numbers to this thread.

I respect both of you for putting in thought and effort to your posts.

That said, both of you have shown by your posts exactly why this particular problem is never discussed in the U.S.

It doesn’t matter if your heart is in the right place; the topic may not be discussed.

At last liberals and conservatives can agree with each other on something... that the only thing to do is close our eyes, hear nothing, and say nothing. Great ....
You were asked by a poster(Mothra), if you were aware that arson and property damage(2 crime categories where Whites excel in), were being used by White extremists to frame the left? In post #1729 you answered the question by deflecting to the absurd statement, that in the total Black American population(13% of America), that ALL of its males(6.5%) commit 8,000 murders. Since 2.6M Black males can't commit 8,000 murders, the statement is just ignorant, bigoted, and racist. You not only brought this issue up, but you defended it in other posts as well.

"Similarly to the left wing city leaders pandering to and enabling the left wing rioters is the left wing leaders and mainstream media who deliberately ignore a crisis that, by the body count, is far, far worse than the tiny percentage of deaths caused by right wing extremists. What is it, you ask? It's that about 50% of those 16,000+ murders were committed by a demographic that comprises about 6.5% of our entire population. But our society has self-censored ourselves from discussing it, and so it continues, year after year with nothing being done about it. My strong belief is that we are all Americans, and when any group of us are in crisis, we should hit it head on and lift each other up and solve the problem.".

Maybe you haven't learned the most simplest of all lessons in treating any living creature. If you treat people like criminals, then they will behave like criminals. If you take away anyone's dignity, freedom, esteem, future, and sense of humanity(or existence), then they will have nothing left to lose.

Again, you are just part of the enabling problem, NOT a part of the solution.




P
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
You were asked by a poster(Mothra), if you were aware that arson and property damage(2 crime categories where Whites excel in), were being used by White extremists to frame the left? In post #1729 you answered the question by deflecting to the absurd statement, that in the total Black American population(13% of America), that ALL of its males(6.5%) commit 8,000 murders. Since 2.6M Black males can't commit 8,000 murders, the statement is just ignorant, bigoted, and racist. You not only brought this issue up, but you defended it in other posts as well.

"Similarly to the left wing city leaders pandering to and enabling the left wing rioters is the left wing leaders and mainstream media who deliberately ignore a crisis that, by the body count, is far, far worse than the tiny percentage of deaths caused by right wing extremists. What is it, you ask? It's that about 50% of those 16,000+ murders were committed by a demographic that comprises about 6.5% of our entire population. But our society has self-censored ourselves from discussing it, and so it continues, year after year with nothing being done about it. My strong belief is that we are all Americans, and when any group of us are in crisis, we should hit it head on and lift each other up and solve the problem.".

Maybe you haven't learned the most simplest of all lessons in treating any living creature. If you treat people like criminals, then they will behave like criminals. If you take away anyone's dignity, freedom, esteem, future, and sense of humanity(or existence), then they will have nothing left to lose.

Again, you are just part of the enabling problem, NOT a part of the solution.




P
No, Shell, my first response was to JohnSmith, post #1723, where he talks about a rise in right wing terrorism in the U.S. and gives a number of 34 murders in the past year.

In post 1735, greggerypeccary follows up by saying, "Right wing extremists are the biggest threat to your safety. By a country mile."

So because right wing extremists committed 34 murders out some 16,000+ murders last year in the U.S., they are the biggest threat to my safety?

Now I have dealt with racist right wing extremists during my career, and they are the scum of the earth. I can't stand 'em.

Furthermore, I am not a racist. I wasn't raised that way, and I have never harbored feelings like that.

My only point was that if you're looking for a serious murder problem in the U.S., a problem that is disproportionate, then the numbers point at that particular demographic. That's not racism; that's a fact. And in my comments, I segued to my frustration with the fact that this problem is ignored by my society. And, if it is mentioned, he who so dares is immediately accused of racism ... which is exactly what happened here. You all did exactly what I said happens here. Consequently, since no one may talk about it, the safest thing to do is to not speak of it, not see it, and not hear it. As an American who cares about this carnage, that frustrates me. And the cowardice and apathy of our leaders angers me.

Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw it or read it, but it was a grieving loved one (a mother or sister) of one of these murder victims. And I remember hearing her saying sadly, "Just another dead black kid, and nobody cares" or words to that effect. And I thought to myself, she's right. Nobody with any power or influence in this country really gives a shit. And they certainly aren't going to risk being labelled a racist by bringing it up.

Well I do give a shit. As far as I'm concerned, we are all Americans, and if any one segment of us is in crisis, then we all are. That's just how I see it.
 

Auggie

Active member
@Seth.

The problem with your analogy is that it doesn't explain the 'why' factor. Yes, the facts show that black Americans commit a disproportionate amount of crime.

The question is: WHY?

When talking about crimes committed by a right-wing extremist, their motivation is racism and white supremacy - it is primarily driven by ideology.

Blacks committing crimes has almost nothing to do with any ideological tendencies. The causes of crime among blacks is socio-economic.

Certainly, you can tell the difference between a 'hate crime' and a normal crime?
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
My only point was that if you're looking for a serious murder problem in the U.S., a problem that is disproportionate, then the numbers point at that particular demographic. That's not racism; that's a fact. And in my comments, I segued to my frustration with the fact that this problem is ignored by my society. And, if it is mentioned, he who so dares is immediately accused of racism ... which is exactly what happened here. You all did exactly what I said happens here. Consequently, since no one may talk about it, the safest thing to do is to not speak of it, not see it, and not hear it. As an American who cares about this carnage, that frustrates me. And the cowardice and apathy of our leaders angers me.
Either you don't get it, or you are purposely trying hard not to get it. You keep claiming that Blacks commit disproportionately half of all murders. THIS IS A LIE!! You also claim, that in a Black population of 13% in America, that all Black males(6.5%) commit half of all murders. THIS IS ALSO A BLATANT LIE!! Either you want to keep ignoring all the clear points that I raise, or, you just don't want to hear the truth.

"For UCR purposes, law enforcement agencies (LEAs) report any death due to injuries received in a fight, quarrel, argument, assault, or commission of a crime as Murder and Nonnegligent Manslaughter.". "Although LEAs may charge offenders with lesser offenses, e.g., negligent manslaughter, agencies report the offense as Murder and Nonnegligent Manslaughter if the killing was willful or intentional.".

Perspective, and intellectual honesty Seth! This means, that if a Black male hits a man in a bar, DEFENDING the honor of his woman, and the man dies from a heart attack, the Law Enforcement Agencies, must report this as Murder/Non-Negligent Manslaughter. Has he committed Murder? How about in the heat of passion? A Black man catches his wife cheating on him, and kills them both? Has he committed murder? What if a Black man shoots his gun in the air, and the bullet falls down and kills his neighbor? Did he commit murder? In fact, are any of these crimes, and example of murder? Are any of these Black men murderers? I would love to find out just how many Black Americans are really tried, convicted, and sentenced for first degree murder. Compared to White Americans.

Well, since all LEA's must report all these crimes, under the category of Murder/Non-Negligent Manslaughter, then all these Black Americans are murderers!. Also, did you know that innocent Blacks Americans are 7 times more likely to be convicted of murder than Whites. Blacks also represent almost 50% of all total exoneration's as well.


Also, 6.5% of the Black population is over 2M Black American males. Do 2M Black males commit 8,000 Murders? That would be impossible!! And, why do you use Murder, instead of Negligent/Non-Negligent Manslaughter? Maybe because "Murder" has a more sinister impact, and is more racially divisive, right? But I guess, as long as you can find any misconstrued fact to fuel bigotry, fear and racism, why let context and perspective get in the way? Right? Maybe you are NOT a closet bigot/racist, but you are certainly sounding like one.
 

johnsmith

Moderator
Staff member
fucking this!......x 1000....... signed...... hatty's crap university

but as pink said........... back to the US elections! (and trump being a fat, orange, thick, pussy grabbing grifter, massive sook, and all around fuckwit)

x2 for what he said!
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
@Seth.

The problem with your analogy is that it doesn't explain the 'why' factor. Yes, the facts show that black Americans commit a disproportionate amount of crime.

The question is: WHY?

When talking about crimes committed by a right-wing extremist, their motivation is racism and white supremacy - it is primarily driven by ideology.

Blacks committing crimes has almost nothing to do with any ideological tendencies. The causes of crime among blacks is socio-economic.

Certainly, you can tell the difference between a 'hate crime' and a normal crime?
I agree with you that the cause is socio-economic, not ideological, and not any of the crap science that claims it's genetic.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
Either you don't get it, or you are purposely trying hard not to get it. You keep claiming that Blacks commit disproportionately half of all murders. THIS IS A LIE!! You also claim, that in a Black population of 13% in America, that all Black males(6.5%) commit half of all murders. THIS IS ALSO A BLATANT LIE!! Either you want to keep ignoring all the clear points that I raise, or, you just don't want to hear the truth.

"For UCR purposes, law enforcement agencies (LEAs) report any death due to injuries received in a fight, quarrel, argument, assault, or commission of a crime as Murder and Nonnegligent Manslaughter.". "Although LEAs may charge offenders with lesser offenses, e.g., negligent manslaughter, agencies report the offense as Murder and Nonnegligent Manslaughter if the killing was willful or intentional.".

Perspective, and intellectual honesty Seth! This means, that if a Black male hits a man in a bar, DEFENDING the honor of his woman, and the man dies from a heart attack, the Law Enforcement Agencies, must report this as Murder/Non-Negligent Manslaughter. Has he committed Murder? How about in the heat of passion? A Black man catches his wife cheating on him, and kills them both? Has he committed murder? What if a Black man shoots his gun in the air, and the bullet falls down and kills his neighbor? Did he commit murder? In fact, are any of these crimes, and example of murder? Are any of these Black men murderers? I would love to find out just how many Black Americans are really tried, convicted, and sentenced for first degree murder. Compared to White Americans.

Well, since all LEA's must report all these crimes, under the category of Murder/Non-Negligent Manslaughter, then all these Black Americans are murderers!. Also, did you know that innocent Blacks Americans are 7 times more likely to be convicted of murder than Whites. Blacks also represent almost 50% of all total exoneration's as well.


Also, 6.5% of the Black population is over 2M Black American males. Do 2M Black males commit 8,000 Murders? That would be impossible!! And, why do you use Murder, instead of Negligent/Non-Negligent Manslaughter? Maybe because "Murder" has a more sinister impact, and is more racially divisive, right? But I guess, as long as you can find any misconstrued fact to fuel bigotry, fear and racism, why let context and perspective get in the way? Right? Maybe you are NOT a closet bigot/racist, but you are certainly sounding like one.
First of all, you have your numbers all screwed up. Black people represent about 13% of our population. This means that black males constitute about 6.5% of our population. I never said that 100% of black males (6.5% of the total population) commit murder. What I was saying was that about 50% of all murders (or non-negligent manslaughter if you prefer that term) are committed by people within that overall demographic. Taking into account the small percentage of females who commit murder, the percentage of murders committed by black males is probably a little less than 50%.

Here's something to think about....

Two groups recognize that there is this disproportionate number of homicides within this particular demographic.

The first group wants to identify the reasons for it and wants to propose actions that could be taken to reduce the numbers of those homicides.

The second group takes the position that talking about it "fuels bigotry, fear and racism" (your words), and subtly or not-so-subtly accuses the first group of being motivated by racism. The second group's position is that it is inherently wrong to discuss the problem openly and refuses to take part in proposing action to solve it. In actual effect, the second group doesn't want it discussed and won't take any actions to solve it. At the same time, this second group would prefer to focus on the less than 1% of all murders which are committed by some other demographic.

Which group is doing the most harm?
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
Here's something to think about....

Here is something to think about Seth. If my numbers are all screwed, then please demonstrate why they are! Don't simply assert it. If Black males commit almost 50% of all Murders, THEN PROVE IT! How many Black Americans are convicted for Murder each year in the US? Do you even know? Now please follow my logic. If Black Americans represent around 13% of the total US population, that would mean that there are around 40 Million Black Americans in the US, right? You used the 6.5% to represent half of the Black population as being males, and the other 6.5% as being the Black female half. Right? If this is the case, then YES, YOU ARE SAYING THAT 100% OF ALL BLACK MALES ARE COMMITTING 8,000 MURDER!! And, even if you are saying that only 6.5%(demographic) of our entire population commit 8,000 murders, THEN YOU ARE STILL SAYING THAT 100% OF ALL BLACK MALES ARE COMMITTING MURDER! It may certainly be true that all Black males may represent 6.5% of the US population. But it is certainly NOT true that 6.5%(20M) Black American males commit 8,000 Murders. This is just another a lying misrepresentation, for bigots and racists to cling to. Since you are not a moron, I accept that this is certainly NOT what you meant. But it is certainly what you said.

All of these focus groups are useless, and are just part of the problem. People generally behave the way they are treated. If you are treated with suspicions, stereotypes, fear, or as an idiot, then that is the way you will behave. Blacks do not have the anonymity that Whites can enjoy. They cannot hide within their society.

It is society itself that has to change, in its treatment of Black Americans. It is the entire criminal justice system that has to change in its treatment of Black Americans. It is law enforcement that has to change in its treatment of Black Americans. When society can start judging people not as a color, a minority, or as "not us", will any change become possible. Because of human nature being what it is, Blacks will continue to be screwed. Whites will never give up power, privilege, or position. But, there will still be people talking out of both sides of their mouth.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
Here is something to think about Seth. If my numbers are all screwed, then please demonstrate why they are! Don't simply assert it. If Black males commit almost 50% of all Murders, THEN PROVE IT! How many Black Americans are convicted for Murder each year in the US? Do you even know? Now please follow my logic. If Black Americans represent around 13% of the total US population, that would mean that there are around 40 Million Black Americans in the US, right? You used the 6.5% to represent half of the Black population as being males, and the other 6.5% as being the Black female half. Right? If this is the case, then YES, YOU ARE SAYING THAT 100% OF ALL BLACK MALES ARE COMMITTING 8,000 MURDER!! And, even if you are saying that only 6.5%(demographic) of our entire population commit 8,000 murders, THEN YOU ARE STILL SAYING THAT 100% OF ALL BLACK MALES ARE COMMITTING MURDER! It may certainly be true that all Black males may represent 6.5% of the US population. But it is certainly NOT true that 6.5%(20M) Black American males commit 8,000 Murders. This is just another a lying misrepresentation, for bigots and racists to cling to. Since you are not a moron, I accept that this is certainly NOT what you meant. But it is certainly what you said.

All of these focus groups are useless, and are just part of the problem. People generally behave the way they are treated. If you are treated with suspicions, stereotypes, fear, or as an idiot, then that is the way you will behave. Blacks do not have the anonymity that Whites can enjoy. They cannot hide within their society.

It is society itself that has to change, in its treatment of Black Americans. It is the entire criminal justice system that has to change in its treatment of Black Americans. It is law enforcement that has to change in its treatment of Black Americans. When society can start judging people not as a color, a minority, or as "not us", will any change become possible. Because of human nature being what it is, Blacks will continue to be screwed. Whites will never give up power, privilege, or position. But, there will still be people talking out of both sides of their mouth.
I can’t believe that we are not communicating clearly on the numbers.

Yes, there are about 40 million black Americans. They comprise 12-13% of our total population.
Therefore, about 6% of them are black males, or 20 million people.

There are 16,000 murders per year in the U.S.

About 50% of those murders (8000) are committed by black people.

Nearly 90% of those murders committed by black people are committed by black males. The other 10% are committed by black females.

I never said that 100% of all black males committed 8000 murders, and I have no idea why you understood it that way.

Those 8000 murders were committed by people belonging to a demographic representing 40 million people. And 90% of those 8000 were committed by people who fall into the male half of that demographic of 20 million people. It is NOT that ALL of them committed those murders!

Is that clear now? If I misspoke before, I apologize.

What I’m telling you is not crap right wing propaganda or internet fake news. It is all backed up by government agencies who collect this data, and I have looked it up myself. You can too, but here is one (pull down to page 12) ...


Hopefully now we can put the question of the statistics to rest.

An interesting topic in its own thread would be to ask what could be done to change the situation for the better. There is a fair amount of consensus on the causes, but very little on what can actually be done about it.

Seth
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
I never said that 100% of all black males committed 8000 murders, and I have no idea why you understood it that way.
How many of your quotes do I need to post? No you didn't Seth!! You just said many times, that half of the Black population(6.5%) commit 50% of all the murders in America(8,000). That IS ALL of the Black male population. Not half of all Involuntary, excusable, justifiable, or voluntary homicides and manslaughters. Or, even 2nd degree murders. You just keep saying 8,000 murders. My question was, PROVE IT, that Black Americans commit 8,000 MURDERS IN AMERICA?!! If you can't, then please stop saying that they do. You are purposely, or ignorantly, misrepresenting the facts. I have proven that this category includes criminal manslaughter, murder, and other homicides. So stop accusing Blacks of committing 50% of ALL murders. It is NOT 8,000 Murders, so stop calling it that. It gives the impression of a race of male murderers.

I have asked you to show me just how many Black Americans are convicted of Murder each year, compared to White Americans? Was it 8,000? You can't can you? All murders are homicides, but not all homicides are murders. You were a cop and should know the differences. So simply stop lying, and calling 6.5% of the population murderers!! If you don't, then you are just another well-intentioned racial bigot, spreading disinformation about 6.5% of our population(all Black males).

Lets just ignore the the fact that Blacks are 7 times more likely to be convicted of homicide. Or, 5 times more likely to stopped, questioned, searched, and arrested by cops. Or, why Blacks are twice as likely to be exonerated from all violent crimes. Or, the fact that all intentional and willful homicides are reported only as "Murder/Non-Negligent Manslaughter in the FBI's UCR. These are the real uncomfortable truths.

I can see why Whites think that speaking about this is racially sensitive. MAYBE BECAUSE IT IS JUST LIES AND DEROGATORY HALF TRUTHS? Showing me a cite of the homicides rates in America, has no relevance to the so-called 8,000 murders committed by Black Americans. Does the cite demonstrate exactly how many Blacks were convicted of murder? Of course not!

The only thing that we have put to rest here, is that you will continue to keep spreading lies, and misrepresenting the facts. That is, that all Black males are committing 50% of all murders. And, even suggesting that it is just the uncomfortable truth for Blacks. How awfully White of you! But, if you want to say that Blacks appear to commit 8,000 homicides(80% Black on Black deaths), or that Blacks are the most policed and sentenced nationality in the US, then I agree with you. So yes, it is very clear to me. That the 13/50 is the staple of all bigots and racists. Even when it is explained to them.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
How many of your quotes do I need to post? No you didn't Seth!! You just said many times, that half of the Black population(6.5%) commit 50% of all the murders in America(8,000). That IS ALL of the Black male population.
For the last time ... About 50% of all the murders committed in the U.S. are committed by black people. Of that 50%, about 90% are committed by black males. Black males comprise about 6 or 6.5% of our population. The black population is 40 million which means that the black male population is about 20 million. How in god's name you ever thought that I was saying that 8000 murders were committed by all of those 20 million people, I will never know. Within that 20 million are the people who committed those murders, not that all 20 million of them committed murder. That is what I meant. Is there some sort of mental block that is preventing you from understanding that?

Not half of all Involuntary, excusable, justifiable, or voluntary homicides and manslaughters. Or, even 2nd degree murders. You just keep saying 8,000 murders. My question was, PROVE IT, that Black Americans commit 8,000 MURDERS IN AMERICA?!! If you can't, then please stop saying that they do. You are purposely, or ignorantly, misrepresenting the facts. I have proven that this category includes criminal manslaughter, murder, and other homicides. So stop accusing Blacks of committing 50% of ALL murders. It is NOT 8,000 Murders, so stop calling it that. It gives the impression of a race of male murderers.
The sources of these statistics use the same crime definitions for all races, so I'm not going to parse words and debate semantics.

I have asked you to show me just how many Black Americans are convicted of Murder each year, compared to White Americans? Was it 8,000? You can't can you? All murders are homicides, but not all homicides are murders. You were a cop and should know the differences. So simply stop lying, and calling 6.5% of the population murderers!! If you don't, then you are just another well-intentioned racial bigot, spreading disinformation about 6.5% of our population(all Black males).
I have tried to explain to you that I am NOT calling 6.5% of the population murderers.

I don't know the conviction rates. I assume these are arrest statistics.

The only thing that we have put to rest here, is that you will continue to keep spreading lies, and misrepresenting the facts.
That is false.

That is, that all Black males are committing 50% of all murders.
No, I said that 50% of homicides are committed by black people, mostly black male people. That is different from saying that all black males commit homicide. I never meant to say that or imply it. If I got my words mixed up as I typed them or just didn't choose the right phrases or whatever, I apologize again for that.

And, even suggesting that it is just the uncomfortable truth for Blacks. How awfully White of you! But, if you want to say that Blacks appear to commit 8,000 homicides(80% Black on Black deaths), or that Blacks are the most policed and sentenced nationality in the US, then I agree with you. So yes, it is very clear to me. That the 13/50 is the staple of all bigots and racists. Even when it is explained to them.
It is true that a racial bigot could use the 13/50 statistics for the sole purpose of bashing the whole race. Some of them probably do. You've got no argument from me on that. But that doesn't mean the topic may never be discussed in good faith and with good intentions by good people who are not racial bigots, and I am one of those people.

I take no pleasure in saying that you and a couple of others here have done a good job of demonstrating why the topic is never discussed in America and, therefore, why nothing changes. You and the others have demonstrated that perfectly.

Seth
 
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