Civil war in the USA

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
Only the far right - the whacky right - want to kill people. So does the whacky left. There are numerous other examples I could give, but this sort of whataboutism bores me. An endless and fruitless argument over who is worse, when in fact, both sides are guilty. Partisans simply ignore it when the side they lean towards does it. I am just too old and experienced to bother with any sort of tit for tat example vs example vs example vs example any more than I already have. I took the bait and gave a couple of examples, but now I'm done.

My whole point is that 300+ million Americans live peaceably in cooperation with each other every day, even if their political views differ. If it wasn't so, we'd be engaged in a massive blood bath involving millions of people every day instead.

I believe that the blame for the political polarization we see in America lies at the feet of our feckless, cowardly, selfish career politicians in Washington who actually feed off it and benefit from it.

I saw an interesting article today. It is the start of a new centrist party. We'll see if it gains any traction, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. A great many Americans are sick and tired of the Republicans and Democrats.


Seth, do honestly believe that the Democrats are left wing?

I mean, Bernie is, sure ... but the Democrats?

It seems to be that there are more than a few "whacky right" people in positions of power over there. Like, some seriously batshit crazy sorts.

Who on the left is "whacky" and in power?
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
Seth, do honestly believe that the Democrats are left wing?

I mean, Bernie is, sure ... but the Democrats?

It seems to be that there are more than a few "whacky right" people in positions of power over there. Like, some seriously batshit crazy sorts.

Who on the left is "whacky" and in power?
Mothra, I wasn't necessarily talking about anyone in power. The whacky right and the whacky left I was talking about are fringes within the population. There are a tiny minority of deluded and misguided people on the far left and and far right who entertain a fantasy of a civil war.

It's not going to happen. Sane people will not participate in anything like that. These radicals can be dealt with by law enforcement. Those people are capable of creating isolated incidents, but a civil war? Forget it.

Again, 300+ million Americans live peaceably and in cooperation with each other every ... single ... day.
 
I wasn’t surprised when Trump lost the election. I believed that most of his policies were good, but that his personality had alienated too many voters while, at the same time, motivating the opposition to vote. I was right about that.

You may recall that after the election I didn’t really care about Trump’s legal challenges to the election results. I didn’t expect them to succeed, but I made the point that the courts and our laws provide for the peaceful resolution of disputes, and Trump had the right to avail himself of that lawful and peaceful system. Not surprisingly, one by one, all of those legal challenges failed.

Where I was wrong was in my expectation that when those court challenges failed, there would be a routine transfer of power on January 20th. I didn’t foresee the events of January 6th. But when that happened, I posted that he had lost my support to remain in office. Had January 6th not been so close to January 20th I would have supported his removal from office by impeachment. But that process takes time, and it quickly became clear that by the time that process could reach its conclusion, his term of office would be over anyway. Effectively, he had already been impeached by the results of the election.


A recent poll showed that 59% of Republicans want the party to nominate someone other than Trump for 2024. This means that he still has 41% support in the Party. That could be enough to win the nomination if the 59% against him is divided up among 2 or 3 other candidates. So it is possible that we would see Trump get the nomination in 2024, but he would get crushed in the general election.

My opinion is that Biden and the Democrats have done a horrible job so far, on so many fronts, and there is zero reason to expect them to do any better between now and 2024. A generic Republican other than Trump could win in 2024. But with only 41% support in the Republican Party and very little support among Independents, Trump would get crushed in the general election. The Republicans can therefore nominate someone else and give themselves a chance to win, or they can nominate Trump and commit political suicide. Those are their choices.

As for me, I am not going to vote for the Democratic nominee, nor am I going to vote for Trump. I can’t be sure yet what I’ll do. We’ll see. I could just not vote for the first time in my adult life. But I am going to pay attention to this attempt to form a new, centrist party. If actually gains traction, and if it offers decent policies, maybe I’ll vote for them. Time will tell.
Biden is trash but he's the usual trash. That the American system can't put forward a decent candidate like Bernie is why you live in the third world
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
Mothra, I wasn't necessarily talking about anyone in power. The whacky right and the whacky left I was talking about are fringes within the population. There are a tiny minority of deluded and misguided people on the far left and and far right who entertain a fantasy of a civil war.

It's not going to happen. Sane people will not participate in anything like that. These radicals can be dealt with by law enforcement. Those people are capable of creating isolated incidents, but a civil war? Forget it.

Again, 300+ million Americans live peaceably and in cooperation with each other every ... single ... day.

Yeah but Seth, the whacky right is in power over there, all over the place. And the whacky right got a huge shot in the arm when Hillary called them deplorables anD Trump let them off the leash.

I wish i could impress on you that Antifa, BLM and others like them are a response to a very alarming rise of alt-right agitation, and not a spontaneous formation of people. I'm not going to debate with you about their righteousness or lack thereof .. we will never agree ... but i hope you can at least concede that they exist as a response. And what they are fighting against is decidedly more odious than what they are fighting.

And there is nobody in a position of power over there that you could call left.

I keep reading stories from survivors of Fascism, Nazism and Totalitarianism in Europe who collectively repeat for all those who will listen is that there is a scent on the wind today that reminds them of times past. Of when civil liberties were nibbled away by increments ... of a rise in intolerance of the other Even more frightening, a demonisation of the other.

And most alarmingly, a normalisation of that intolerance.

And i think, and i hope you can agree, that Trump can stick his hand up for a world of damage there.
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
Yeah but Seth, the whacky right is in power over there, all over the place. And the whacky right got a huge shot in the arm when Hillary called them deplorables anD Trump let them off the leash.

I wish i could impress on you that Antifa, BLM and others like them are a response to a very alarming rise of alt-right agitation, and not a spontaneous formation of people. I'm not going to debate with you about their righteousness or lack thereof .. we will never agree ... but i hope you can at least concede that they exist as a response. And what they are fighting against is decidedly more odious than what they are fighting.

And there is nobody in a position of power over there that you could call left.

I keep reading stories from survivors of Fascism, Nazism and Totalitarianism in Europe who collectively repeat for all those who will listen is that there is a scent on the wind today that reminds them of times past. Of when civil liberties were nibbled away by increments ... of a rise in intolerance of the other Even more frightening, a demonisation of the other.

And most alarmingly, a normalisation of that intolerance.

And i think, and i hope you can agree, that Trump can stick his hand up for a world of damage there.
A lot to unpack there. I will be as brief as possible.

"Yeah but Seth, the whacky right is in power over there, all over the place."

The House of Representatives has a Democratic majority. The Senate is split with the Democrats having a one vote majority, and the President is a Democrat.

In the number of state governors, its almost even with Republicans having a slight edge, 28-22. A swing of 3 states to Democrats would make it dead even.

There is one far-right extremist I can think of in the 435-member House of Representatives, a woman named Marjorie Taylor Greene.

"I wish i could impress on you that Antifa, BLM and others like them are a response to a very alarming rise of alt-right agitation,"

BLM and Antifa are two completely different things with two different goals.

Antifa is just an extreme far-left movement that originated from a loose-knit community of anarchists and which has never deviated from those roots. They existed quite a long time before the BLM movement. The "anti-fascist" (Antifa) name is a fairly recent and clever name change. They believe in their hearts that our entire system of laws and economics should be violently torn down. The BLM movement didn't ask for their help. Instead, Antifa glommed on to the BLM movement as an excuse to do what they believe in which is to commit violence and destruction. We saw this with our own eyes in Portland, as black leaders implored Antifa to stop the destruction and violence. But, of course, Antifa ignored them.

What BLM seeks is police reform. What Antifa seeks is no police at all and the chaos that would ensue.

Now the temptation is to simply deny the truth about Antifa because they have a bizarre set of goals that make no sense to us. Civilized people don't want chaos and violence, and so we transfer that expectation to other people, even Antifa. It is hard to wrap our heads around the idea that anyone could wish to bring that upon their own country and citizens. But that's why they are the fringe. They are really no different in their mindset and attitudes than an extreme far-right Nazi supporter. Their propaganda is different, but they are not really much different from each other.

"And there is nobody in a position of power over there that you could call left."

That's just a matter of definition. In the U.S. most people are moderate, leaning left or right. As you get further and further to the right or left, the amount of support dwindles. And keep in mind that there is quite a bit of hyperbole that comes out of the political class and its mouthpiece media. To Democrats, any Republican idea is accused of being "far right". And to Republicans, any Democratic idea is accused of being "far left".

I never put any stock in any of that. Issues should be decided on their merits, not on who likes them and who doesn't or which side does a better job of name-calling.


"I keep reading stories from survivors of Fascism, Nazism and Totalitarianism in Europe who collectively repeat for all those who will listen is that there is a scent on the wind today that reminds them of times past. Of when civil liberties were nibbled away by increments ... of a rise in intolerance of the other Even more frightening, a demonisation of the other.

And most alarmingly, a normalisation of that intolerance."

We have become politically intolerant of each other in this country. I blame poor leaders and the media for that. And I blame "permanent Washington" - the career politicians - who feed off of it for selfish personal reasons.

But I emphasize "politically" because, as I have said before, the average American, 300+ million of us, live peacefully with each other every single day.

You mentioned "civil liberties were nibbled away", but I would assert that the average American has more civil liberties than the average Australian does. As an American, some of the things that your government can do to you shock me.

"And i think, and i hope you can agree, that Trump can stick his hand up for a world of damage there."

The intolerance comes from both sides, in my opinion. People on both sides need to take responsibility for that.

Hmmm ... as usual, not very brief. Sorry.

Seth
 
The "anti-fascist" (Antifa) name is a fairly recent and clever name change.

What Antifa seeks is no police at all and the chaos that would ensue.
I recommend this new fangled thing called Google....

Antifa is the name of a group created by the left in Nazi Germany. People identified with that name all along. The name became prominent again in politics because Trump is a fascist, proud boys are fascists, and when you have fascism, more people become actively anti fascist. Anti fascists have mobilied to protect minority groups from fascist groups, for example. Name change. LOL!!!!!

Abolish the police is a noble goal but the issue is people are illiterate and think that this means a call for no laws, or no law keepers. The slogan, like so much left wing politics, assumes intelligence when it is often absent
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
Buggered if i know how to respond to all that Seth, so i'll just break it down into posts. Might make it easier to discuss that way too.

Me: "Yeah but Seth, the whacky right is in power over there, all over the place."

Seth:
"The House of Representatives has a Democratic majority. The Senate is split with the Democrats having a one vote majority, and the President is a Democrat.

In the number of state governors, its almost even with Republicans having a slight edge, 28-22. A swing of 3 states to Democrats would make it dead even.

There is one far-right extremist I can think of in the 435-member House of Representatives, a woman named Marjorie Taylor Greene. "


Seth, i wonder again if you have read the article in the OP. It clearly states that such a devious course was dependant on the upcoming midterms.

I''m afraid, with all that has recently transpired with women's rights over there and the strictly conservative turn things have taken that i am appeased by your breakdown. And we already know who the POTUS is doesn't matter under this pathway.

And thankyou for conceding the noxiousness of that horrid Greene woman, but there's a whole lot more like her, be they only representing at a state level. Not to mention more than a couple of scary fuckers in the race for the next federal election.

Not to mention Trump. Again.

And then you have that absolute farce of a SCOTUS.
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
Me: "I wish i could impress on you that Antifa, BLM and others like them are a response to a very alarming rise of alt-right agitation,"

Seth: "BLM and Antifa are two completely different things with two different goals.

Antifa is just an extreme far-left movement that originated from a loose-knit community of anarchists and which has never deviated from those roots. They existed quite a long time before the BLM movement. The "anti-fascist" (Antifa) name is a fairly recent and clever name change. They believe in their hearts that our entire system of laws and economics should be violently torn down. The BLM movement didn't ask for their help. Instead, Antifa glommed on to the BLM movement as an excuse to do what they believe in which is to commit violence and destruction. We saw this with our own eyes in Portland, as black leaders implored Antifa to stop the destruction and violence. But, of course, Antifa ignored them.

What BLM seeks is police reform. What Antifa seeks is no police at all and the chaos that would ensue.

Now the temptation is to simply deny the truth about Antifa because they have a bizarre set of goals that make no sense to us. Civilized people don't want chaos and violence, and so we transfer that expectation to other people, even Antifa. It is hard to wrap our heads around the idea that anyone could wish to bring that upon their own country and citizens. But that's why they are the fringe. They are really no different in their mindset and attitudes than an extreme far-right Nazi supporter. Their propaganda is different, but they are not really much different from each other.



Apologies Seth, but that sounds very much like you're frightened that your bathroom is breeding Bolsheviks.

Antifa are not some ages old disrupters of social cohesion. Sure some of them say they are Anarchists but man, if i had a dollar for everything i doodled the Anarchist symbol on when i was young i'd no longer need to work.

Would it surprise you to know that i am one such "Anarchist"? That i've gone to alt-right protests in defiance?

And so have almost all of my friends.

And guess what? We are all tax paying contributors to society that love our kids and work within our communities to make them better places. Some of us are in politics, some in law, some in teaching, some in medicine, some in social welfare, some in the arts, some in IT .. etc.


These people that you dismiss as lawless and destructive are most probably the most altruistic and compassionate members of your community.
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
Seth: "You mentioned "civil liberties were nibbled away", but I would assert that the average American has more civil liberties than the average Australian does. As an American, some of the things that your government can do to you shock me. "

What, like not getting shot when we go down the shops, having our kids shot when they go to school, having access to free healthcare, a social welfare system, a liveable minimum wage, reproductive rights, equal and affordable education, ... you mean stuff like that?
 
"These people that you dismiss as lawless and destructive are most probably the most altruistic and compassionate members of your community. "

Spot on. the far right like to suggest the left 'hate the family', but we all have families we love. Most of them are 'traditional' families, we just don't hate OTHER types of family. The far right love to claim that we're all on welfare but honestly, I am a knowledge worker, in a high paid industry and I come to work with my notebook covered in antifa stickers, expecting most people to not object to that sentiment. I am always correct.

I am part of two communities, the left wing community and the metal community. Both are often maligned but both are places I feel safe, and accepted and confident that the people around me are welcoming, thoughtful and kind
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
I recommend this new fangled thing called Google....

Antifa is the name of a group created by the left in Nazi Germany. People identified with that name all along. The name became prominent again in politics because Trump is a fascist, proud boys are fascists, and when you have fascism, more people become actively anti fascist. Anti fascists have mobilied to protect minority groups from fascist groups, for example. Name change. LOL!!!!!
"Anti-fascist", created in Nazi Germany in the 1930s or 1940s, has nothing in common with Antifa in America today.

Abolish the police is a noble goal
Lol ...
 
"Anti-fascist", created in Nazi Germany in the 1930s or 1940s, has nothing in common with Antifa in America today.
In what ways? In Germany they were more violent? Probably. Antifa today is an idea, not a group. Right wing idiots are scared because 'antifa' reliably show up and oppose their racism but they have no clue what it is beyond what Tucker tells them.

Abolish the police means don't use the police for everything, such as mental health callouts, because cops are trained to respond with violence and do. It doesn't mean have no laws or don't punish crime. But sadly the right are illiterate as well as lying to oppose any good ideas that build a society
 

johnsmith

Administrator
Staff member
I'd be particularly interested in what civil liberties you think our governemnt deprives us of.

So would I actually. I think we have far more freedoms here than they do in the USA. Or at the very least just as many. And for those few liberties we lose, the positives far outweigh the negatives. Just because kids can't buy automatic weapons doesn't mean we're run by a police state
 
So would I actually. I think we have far more freedoms here than they do in the USA. Or at the very least just as many. And for those few liberties we lose, the positives far outweigh the negatives. Just because kids can't buy automatic weapons doesn't mean we're run by a police state
The idea the government is constraining our liberties by protecting minorities from us, is fascism. It's not an attack on my freedom to require vaccination, it's a demand I participate in society. Our government is far from perfect, but the fascists hate it for the good things about it.
 
Top