Civil war in the USA

Squire

Active member
The only thing that unites and excites Americans is killing foreigners.

The first step to civil war is for one side of politics to label the other as an enemy which the GOP has already done.

The USA is not a democracy when a minority of electors can elect a president.

That is why Trump challenged the election because he had the majority vote in the population and in the electoral college but he believed that entitled him to the presidency.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
The USA is not a democracy when a minority of electors can elect a president.

That is why Trump challenged the election because he had the majority vote in the population and in the electoral college but he believed that entitled him to the presidency.
Trump never had either the popular vote, or the electoral votes in 2020. Biden 81M/74M popular votes. And Biden 306/232 electoral votes. But you are right, he simply BELIEVED that he should have won, because he is narcissistic, privileged, and an egotistic rich White man.


@SethBullock

Curirous to see what you think of this video. Do you think the US is at risk of civil war?
A civil war may be the only solution left to stop the spread of Federalism(State rule). Texas and Mississippi have proven that the Federal and Constitutional laws are just paper tigers to be ignored. If the Constitutional and Federal laws don't conform to the conservative needs and beliefs of the state's elites, oligarchs, and autocrats, then they should just be ignored.

If any state believes that it has the right to force a pregnant mother, to give birth to a child she doesn't want, then there is no limit to how far the State government will go, to ignore the people's right to privacy.

Since electronic surveillance is also not mentioned in the Constitution by name, Spying on people will be controlled by the states. You can kiss gay rights and marriages goodbye. Kiss all religious tolerance goodbye. Dress-codes, teaching religion and Intelligent Design in preschools, and State-controlled segregation will all be micro-managed by the State. Expect limited rights regarding, voting, interstate travel, employment, education, and business opportunities. Especially, if you are not White. Non-whites will continue to be executed, denied due-process, and imprisoned in much higher numbers than Whites.

The Federal government has the duty of care to protect the people's God-given rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Eventually, the government will have no choice but to step in and protect against these civil rights abuses by the States. As they have done on other occasions. It is just a matter of time.
 

Linus

Member
Interesting video....:LOL:

I'd say the video is spot on, especially given that by the CIA's own metrics, the US is a candidate country for civil war.

It's such a polarised country. Left and Right are in their own media bubbles and not constructively talking to each other.

Roe v Wade has widened the gap between the two sides.

Radical GOP politicians are talking violence if the Democrats are returned to power in 2024. Most Republican supporters believe they were swindled in the last election.

Three retired US generals are worried about division within the armed services along partisan lines. They honestly believe some rogue units within their ranks will join insurgents should Republicans lose again.

I think the country has painted itself into a corner.

Short of some major external conflict to unite the fractured parts, I'd place a bet with the bookies that there will be some kind of guerilla insurgency if the Republicans don't get their way in 2024.
 

Squire

Active member
Trump never had either the popular vote, or the electoral votes in 2020. Biden 81M/74M popular votes. And Biden 306/232 electoral votes. But you are right, he simply BELIEVED that he should have won, because he is narcissistic, privileged, and an egotistic rich White man.



A civil war may be the only solution left to stop the spread of Federalism(State rule). Texas and Mississippi have proven that the Federal and Constitutional laws are just paper tigers to be ignored. If the Constitutional and Federal laws don't conform to the conservative needs and beliefs of the state's elites, oligarchs, and autocrats, then they should just be ignored.

If any state believes that it has the right to force a pregnant mother, to give birth to a child she doesn't want, then there is no limit to how far the State government will go, to ignore the people's right to privacy.

Since electronic surveillance is also not mentioned in the Constitution by name, Spying on people will be controlled by the states. You can kiss gay rights and marriages goodbye. Kiss all religious tolerance goodbye. Dress-codes, teaching religion and Intelligent Design in preschools, and State-controlled segregation will all be micro-managed by the State. Expect limited rights regarding, voting, interstate travel, employment, education, and business opportunities. Especially, if you are not White. Non-whites will continue to be executed, denied due-process, and imprisoned in much higher numbers than Whites.

The Federal government has the duty of care to protect the people's God-given rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Eventually, the government will have no choice but to step in and protect against these civil rights abuses by the States. As they have done on other occasions. It is just a matter of time.
I made a mistake in my post. I meant Trump had the minority vote in the popular vote and in the electoral college, not the majority vote.
 

johnsmith

Administrator
Staff member
It's such a polarised country. Left and Right are in their own media bubbles and not constructively talking to each other.

Roe v Wade has widened the gap between the two sides.
It's actually a good argument FOR compulsory voting. As it is now in the USA it's mostly the extremes who go and vote, whilst those who tend to be in the centre not giving enough of a shit to bother.
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member

@SethBullock

Curirous to see what you think of this video. Do you think the US is at risk of civil war?
No. At least not in the sense of an actual shooting war between organized paramilitary groups. I think our “civil war” is already in progress, but it is a war of words, and it will remain so.

In our last civil war, people were willing to give up everything they had - their homes, cities, and their very lives. This is not true of present day Americans. Generally speaking, Americans would not be willing to give up anything.

And unlike in the 1860s, their is no united region of the U.S. that could coalesce into a viable revolutionary force.

There are extremists on the left and right who agitate for a civil war, but the vast majority on both sides of the mainstream political spectrum are not interested.

It is not the 1860s anymore. We are not Syria or Iraq.
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
No. At least not in the sense of an actual shooting war between organized paramilitary groups. I think our “civil war” is already in progress, but it is a war of words, and it will remain so.

In our last civil war, people were willing to give up everything they had - their homes, cities, and their very lives. This is not true of present day Americans. Generally speaking, Americans would not be willing to give up anything.

And unlike in the 1860s, their is no united region of the U.S. that could coalesce into a viable revolutionary force.

There are extremists on the left and right who agitate for a civil war, but the vast majority on both sides of the mainstream political spectrum are not interested.

It is not the 1860s anymore. We are not Syria or Iraq.

Yeah but you crazy kids are all armed to the teeth.

And if Jan 6th is anything to go by, you've some seriously disgruntled individuals over there ... armed to the teeth.

And i know you're dirty on Antifa Seth, but surely you must agree that they are a response. A response to an ever-growing threat in your country. Far tight extremism is now considered to be the biggest threat in your country ... as it is in ours. Now i'm not saying Antifa are improving things but while the dialogue remains that they are as bad as what they're fighting, you've got some serious issues.

There are NOT good people on both sides.

You don;t even technically qualify as a democracy anymore.

And all you crazy kids are armed to the teeth.
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
Yeah but you crazy kids are all armed to the teeth.

And if Jan 6th is anything to go by, you've some seriously disgruntled individuals over there ... armed to the teeth.

And i know you're dirty on Antifa Seth, but surely you must agree that they are a response. A response to an ever-growing threat in your country. Far tight extremism is now considered to be the biggest threat in your country ... as it is in ours. Now i'm not saying Antifa are improving things but while the dialogue remains that they are as bad as what they're fighting, you've got some serious issues.

There are NOT good people on both sides.

You don;t even technically qualify as a democracy anymore.

And all you crazy kids are armed to the teeth.
We may be armed to the teeth, but nobody except the far left and right fringe nutcases are interested in having a civil war.

Frankly, I am far more concerned that Biden will bumble his way into some foolish, unnecessary war than I am about far right or left wing nutcases.

And why do you say we are not a democracy anymore? We haven’t changed our electoral system since the early 20th Century when we amended the Constitution to provide for the selection of Senators by direct vote. (They were chosen by state legislatures prior to that). The country has never selected its President by a straight direct vote of the people. Nothing has changed.
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
We may be armed to the teeth, but nobody except the far left and right fringe nutcases are interested in having a civil war.

Frankly, I am far more concerned that Biden will bumble his way into some foolish, unnecessary war than I am about far right or left wing nutcases.

And why do you say we are not a democracy anymore? We haven’t changed our electoral system since the early 20th Century when we amended the Constitution to provide for the selection of Senators by direct vote. (They were chosen by state legislatures prior to that). The country has never selected its President by a straight direct vote of the people. Nothing has changed.

Sorry Seth, did you watch the video in the OP?

Just because it explains the democracy thing.
 

greggerypeccary

Active member
We may be armed to the teeth, but nobody except the far left and right fringe nutcases are interested in having a civil war.
The Republicans want civil war, Seth.

The Republican party is full of your 'right fringe nutcases' who are doing their best to promote violence.

Marjorie Taylor Greene, Ted Cruz, Lauren Boebert, Josh Hawley, Matt Gaetz, et al.

Extremely dangerous, unhinged people who go out of their way to promote violence.

The GOP wants a one-party fascist state, and they are more than willing to use violence to achieve their goal.
 

johnsmith

Administrator
Staff member
No. At least not in the sense of an actual shooting war between organized paramilitary groups
I don't think it'll be the same as your previous civil war either, but that doesn't mean there won't be any shooting going on. Certain sectors of the American public have already proven they're willing to resort to violence if they think it'll help them achieve their political goals. Whilst certain characters continue to gain by causing division, even if it is through lies , and others support that stance, then you've got big problems. Unless people are willing to call out the lies, ragardless of whether they benefit your side or not, then it's only going to get worse.

The internet has made things worse because where once they lies would have been shut down and not given any oxygen, now they are allowed to continue and form their own cult following by those looking for their echo chamber. Look at the number of idiots still claiming trump won the election despite no evidence of any such thing happening. Over 60 court cases and not one shred of evidence was even presented, and some still insist that the election was stolen. That's absurd. And no, it's not only trump, there are those from both sides benefiting form division, but he's the most obvious example of it.
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
The Republicans want civil war, Seth.

The Republican party is full of your 'right fringe nutcases' who are doing their best to promote violence.

Marjorie Taylor Greene, Ted Cruz, Lauren Boebert, Josh Hawley, Matt Gaetz, et al.

Extremely dangerous, unhinged people who go out of their way to promote violence.

The GOP wants a one-party fascist state, and they are more than willing to use violence to achieve their goal.
@johnsmith @mothra

The two sides have grown intolerant of each other’s points of view. Both sides have heard it all before, and they really aren’t interested in discussing or compromising. This is, in my opinion, childish, and reminds me of young children screaming in anguish at the grocery store because their mommy won’t buy them a piece of candy. They are adults who are spoiled rotten, self-important, self-entitled, and who were never raised to learn how to be a good loser or a gracious winner.

There is a difference between truly wanting a fascist dictatorship and being a poor loser, screaming and ranting and lashing out like a spoiled 3 year old. I think it’s possible that we are confusing the two.

That is not to deny the existence of extremism in the fringes of both the right and left. But serious, violent extremism is not widespread in this country. If it does rear its head, it gets a lot of attention, though, and I can understand how people from other countries get the impression of a country on the verge of a civil war, or fascism, based upon reporting from the sensationalist news media.

What they aren’t reporting is that hundreds of millions of Americans work and live peacefully and cooperatively with each other every single day. And the last thing on their minds is the hope of creating a fascist state.

And so I remain relatively unconcerned about violent extremists, and I believe they can be dealt with effectively by law enforcement and our criminal courts. As examples, just recently, an Antifa member/supporter was sentenced to 10 years in federal prison for throwing a fire bomb at police in Portland and other acts of arson. Concurrently, rioters who committed crimes at the Capitol on January 6th are being tried and convicted and sentenced.

Mothra, I watched the video twice, and I disagree with her. The real power to direct U.S. national and international policy still rests with Congress. Increasingly, we see that Congress simply does not want to use its power because using that power entails taking a stand, and taking a stand entails political risk, and career politicians hate to take political risks. And so what do they do? They try to make the two other branches of government - the Executive and the Judicial - do their job for them. They are perverting our system! The primary reason for the existence of the executive branch is to carry out the will of Congress - the elected representatives of the people. But in this perverted system the Congress either acquiesces to the will of the President or they criticize it. But, in fact, what the Congress should be doing is making policy and accepting the cheers and taking the heat.

So if it seems like we are slipping towards autocracy, the blame for that is with Congress, for it is they who are derelict in their duty. It is they who have willfully delegated their power to the Executive and Judicial branches. And as they refuse to do what they were elected to do, it appears as though the President or the Judiciary is seizing more and more power. But the truth is that the President isn’t seizing power. The truth is that Congress is giving it to the president for their own selfish reasons, namely that members of Congress don’t want to be held accountable for anything.

And this is why members of Congress spend so much time supporting a president or undermining a president. It’s a perversion of the way our system was supposed to work, where the role of the president was supposed to be to carry out what Congress tells him to carry out.

So this abdication of duty by the Congress creates the dysfunction that we see in Washington. The dysfunction is because the Congress won’t wield its power, but the power of the president is tightly hemmed in by the Constitution.

Fortunately, Congress still possesses the power it is supposed to have. And the Constitution is still the supreme law of the land. Fascism or dictatorship cannot coexist with the Constitution. So no, I do not see us falling towards a dictatorship. For that to happen, we would have to have a violent, full scale revolution, and that is NOT going to happen.

Seth
 
I don't think there will be civil war because most of the right is old men hoping OTHER people die for their cause. I do think there will be low level unrest, and violence, and a divided society. I'll never go back. Why would I?
 

Linus

Member
If you keep raising the temperature of the water, it's going to boil. The way it's headed in the US nothing seems to be cooling tensions. The right in America are the Bunsen burner driving polarisation. It's not abating and only getting worse.

The Republican party has become radicalised-(you're not looking at some fringe goons here.) The Republican party has tried to sugarcoat Jan 6, which was inspired by its former leader, Trump. They're always evasive in the media about it- they are in fact, by doing this, tacitly supporting and normalising violence to achieve their political objectives.

You have nuts like Gosar Tweeting an anime video showing him killing his Democrat Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and swinging at President Joe Biden with two swords. Nary a Republican has been heard to object to his "joke."

They also have fallen over backwards praising and offering Rittenhouse an internship.


When members of their own party support a bipartisan infrastructure bill, they get put in line with death threats from their "deplorable" base, where over 70% think Trump was robbed of his presidency and according to The Hill- "A majority, or 55 percent, of Republicans support use of force as a means to stop the decline of “the traditional American way of life,”

The New York Times reported:

“From congressional offices to community meeting rooms, threats of violence are becoming commonplace among a significant segment of the Republican Party. Ten months after rioters attacked the United States Capitol on Jan. 6, and after four years of a president who often spoke in violent terms about his adversaries, right-wing Republicans are talking more openly and frequently about the use of force as justifiable in opposition to those who dislodged him[Trump] from power.”

The FBI has reported that the extreme right has infiltrated the military and police. We've all seen photos and video of police fist-bumping their loony right pals.

The far right is radicalizing people on social media ,and it is openly preparing for a break-down of law and order, no doubt doing their best to bring that about. It is using violent rhetoric such as: '“Watering the tree of liberty with blood,” “It’s back to 1776”

Professor Walter has said:

“The groups that tend to start civil wars are the groups that were once dominant politically but are in decline. They’ve either lost political power or they’re losing political power and they truly believe that the country is theirs by right and they are justified in using force to regain control because the system no longer works for them.”

The right fear that White Supremacy in the US is losing its grip.Their heads have been exploding over it since the election of Obama.

The right are in full flight. If the Democrats win 2024, I'm expecting an uptick in far right domestic terrorism and mayhem. It will probably spiral from there.
 

greggerypeccary

Active member
The right are in full flight. If the Democrats win 2024, I'm expecting an uptick in far right domestic terrorism and mayhem. It will probably spiral from there.
Absolutely - the right-wing terrorism will be horrific if the Dems win in 2024.

The Republicans have already tried to kill their own Vice President - imagine what they'll do if they lose again in 2024.

It's a lose/lose situation for America.

It's very sad to see a once great nation be utterly destroyed by right-wing extremists like Trump and his insane followers.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
Mothra, I watched the video twice, and I disagree with her. The real power to direct U.S. national and international policy still rests with Congress. Increasingly, we see that Congress simply does not want to use its power because using that power entails taking a stand, and taking a stand entails political risk, and career politicians hate to take political risks. And so what do they do? They try to make the two other branches of government - the Executive and the Judicial - do their job for them. They are perverting our system! The primary reason for the existence of the executive branch is to carry out the will of Congress - the elected representatives of the people. But in this perverted system the Congress either acquiesces to the will of the President or they criticize it. But, in fact, what the Congress should be doing is making policy and accepting the cheers and taking the heat.
Unfortunately State governments are NOT composed of just liberals, progressives, and independents. Unfortunately The Democrats hold 3,276 seats, and the Republicans hold 4,001 seats in all state legislatures in the US. Republicans hold 54.27% of all State legislative seats nationally, and the Democrats hold 44.41%. 23 state have a Republican trifecta(Governorship, senate and house), 14 states are Democratic, and 13 states are divided. Republicans hold the majority in 62 State legislative chambers, and the Democrats hold a majority in 36 chambers nationwide.

At the federal level its not much better. There are 220 Democrats and 211 Republicans in the House of Representative(4 vacant seats). There are 50 Republicans, and 48 Democrats in the Senate(2 Independents).


What does all of this mean. Since there are no progressives anywhere, you can kiss any ideas of social progress goodbye. These antediluvian states will do anything to return to the good old days. Where everyone knew their place, and who was in charge. Where all legislation was decide by the few, to control the many. There will be no area of personal freedoms left sacrosanct. Who would have thought that a state would entertain any legislation to prevent a pregnant woman from leaving the state?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/29/abortion-state-lines/

Once the influx of social refugees to more liberal-minded states begin, and the human-rights abuses continue to escalate, the Federal government will have little choice but to step in to protect the peoples basic civil rights. Remember, these are the power-mad fairytale believers who ignored the Constitution, AND WON! So, you can kiss any liberal, progressive, or libertarian policies goodbye.

The partisan composition of both federal and state governments is not going to change enough to make any major difference, in the coming centuries. Until the people stop watching superheroes flicks, packaged, paid for, and edited news broadcasts, and the dumbing-down ads and entertainment, the rich will continue to get rich, and the poor will continue to receive their 4 yearly dose of promises.

The status que must be protected at all cost.
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
@johnsmith @mothra

The two sides have grown intolerant of each other’s points of view. Both sides have heard it all before, and they really aren’t interested in discussing or compromising. This is, in my opinion, childish, and reminds me of young children screaming in anguish at the grocery store because their mommy won’t buy them a piece of candy. They are adults who are spoiled rotten, self-important, self-entitled, and who were never raised to learn how to be a good loser or a gracious winner.

There is a difference between truly wanting a fascist dictatorship and being a poor loser, screaming and ranting and lashing out like a spoiled 3 year old. I think it’s possible that we are confusing the two.

That is not to deny the existence of extremism in the fringes of both the right and left. But serious, violent extremism is not widespread in this country. If it does rear its head, it gets a lot of attention, though, and I can understand how people from other countries get the impression of a country on the verge of a civil war, or fascism, based upon reporting from the sensationalist news media.

What they aren’t reporting is that hundreds of millions of Americans work and live peacefully and cooperatively with each other every single day. And the last thing on their minds is the hope of creating a fascist state.

And so I remain relatively unconcerned about violent extremists, and I believe they can be dealt with effectively by law enforcement and our criminal courts. As examples, just recently, an Antifa member/supporter was sentenced to 10 years in federal prison for throwing a fire bomb at police in Portland and other acts of arson. Concurrently, rioters who committed crimes at the Capitol on January 6th are being tried and convicted and sentenced.

Mothra, I watched the video twice, and I disagree with her. The real power to direct U.S. national and international policy still rests with Congress. Increasingly, we see that Congress simply does not want to use its power because using that power entails taking a stand, and taking a stand entails political risk, and career politicians hate to take political risks. And so what do they do? They try to make the two other branches of government - the Executive and the Judicial - do their job for them. They are perverting our system! The primary reason for the existence of the executive branch is to carry out the will of Congress - the elected representatives of the people. But in this perverted system the Congress either acquiesces to the will of the President or they criticize it. But, in fact, what the Congress should be doing is making policy and accepting the cheers and taking the heat.

So if it seems like we are slipping towards autocracy, the blame for that is with Congress, for it is they who are derelict in their duty. It is they who have willfully delegated their power to the Executive and Judicial branches. And as they refuse to do what they were elected to do, it appears as though the President or the Judiciary is seizing more and more power. But the truth is that the President isn’t seizing power. The truth is that Congress is giving it to the president for their own selfish reasons, namely that members of Congress don’t want to be held accountable for anything.

And this is why members of Congress spend so much time supporting a president or undermining a president. It’s a perversion of the way our system was supposed to work, where the role of the president was supposed to be to carry out what Congress tells him to carry out.

So this abdication of duty by the Congress creates the dysfunction that we see in Washington. The dysfunction is because the Congress won’t wield its power, but the power of the president is tightly hemmed in by the Constitution.

Fortunately, Congress still possesses the power it is supposed to have. And the Constitution is still the supreme law of the land. Fascism or dictatorship cannot coexist with the Constitution. So no, I do not see us falling towards a dictatorship. For that to happen, we would have to have a violent, full scale revolution, and that is NOT going to happen.

Seth

Thank you for your explanation into Congress. I would add that you overlooked in your reasoning behind Congress's absenteeism individual direct affiliation with corporate sponsors. A lot of that goes on here too.

But all of what you described so well only reinforces the comments made in the video in the OP. And i hold issue with you claiming to disagree with the woman speaking, apologies .. can't be arsed looking for her name. It's not a matter of agreement; it's a matter of the US qualifying as being in a dangerous way by the very metric the US use to assess such states in other countries. It's maths ... or math as you would say. And the US tripped a wire.

Here's another article i would love your perspective on, Seth, if you wouldnt mind:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ing-democracies-civil-liberties-international
 
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