As it stands, is there a single SHRED of evidence that the vaccine significantly lowers transmission?

Biggles53

New member
Good point, but what about the responsibility of vulnerable people, making wise decisions to protect themselves? Why should it be up to others to protect them?
Because that’s what communities do…! We put in place measures to look after one another. It’s why we have laws to protect children. It’s why we have the TGA to ensure that the medicines we use are safe. It’s why we have inspectors for our food production and restaurants. It’s why our plumbers, electricians, etc must be licensed before they work on our homes. Etc, etc, etc……
You don’t like my quotes, so you won’t like this one either…
John Donne told us that “no man is an island…”
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
You asked for prior examples of vaccine mandates….you were given one.
‘Methinks the lady doth protest too much’….
I was really hoping for an example that was a bit more relevant to current events. Something that mandates personal choice, NOT parental choice! I am not protesting your example. I was just hoping for something better than the obvious. I mean, we have been plagued with a few of these viruses for the last 70 years. Where were the mandates then??

You are correct that preschools and childcare facilities have healthcare mandates regarding entry. But many preschools and childcare facilities simply ignore, or don't give a shit about those mandates. Maybe these are the lateral thinkers who believe that the best interest of the child, is NOT whether he/she is vaccinated or not! Maybe these are the thinkers who understand, that if you are already vaccinated(as over 95% of preschoolers are), then why would you care about the health condition of the other 3-5%?? Maybe these are the lateral thinkers who also realize that these childhood diseases have very low mortality rates, and can easily be treated. So why would you deprive the children of a critical social development period in their lives? Just because of a decision made by their parents? So can you think of another more germane example, that involves mandates concerning PERSONAL HEALTH CHOICES!!

.

No, it was a sarcastic attempt to point out that there are many, many examples of us not being able to do as we please whenever we like. We have rules we must follow. It’s called being part of a community…
So we have rules to prevent us from doing what we want. And, to prevent us from doing what we want, we have rules. And, the reason why we can't do what we want, is because we have rules. And, the reason we have rules, is to prevent us from doing what we want. And so on and so on. Whether you are part of the community or not, this is still circular reasoning(begging the question). Are you saying that we should all give up the power of dissent? And, become a part of a community incapable of having a dissenting opinion? A community that simply does what it is told, and follow rules, JUST TO BE PART OF THE COMMUNITY? Sorry, I am very much a part of my community. But, I draw the line when I am told to stick anything into my body, just because the rest of the community is doing it. Only an idiot would do this without having an informed reason. Maybe we should all continue to pickle our liver, because the rest of the community does!! Again, if you are vaccinated, exactly how can unvaccinated people affect you?

All too often, we hear the selfish whining about “My rights, my rights…!” Never do we hear them admit to “My responsibilities…”
It is people like these who affect social change. NOT people like you. It is these whining complaining people, who ended slavery and segregation. It is these socially conscious people who forced equality in education, employment, housing, and the criminal justice system. It is people like these, that addressed racial and sexual harassment in the workplace. It is people like these, who gave women, Black Americans(and other minorities), the right to vote. It is people like these, who gave everyone the right of due process, and every other legal right that we have today. Maybe you should look a bit further than your false characterization of these true social heroes. Otherwise, it is YOU who is being selfish and irresponsible. It is not everyone's responsibility to stand up, and speak out against any injustices and wrongdoings??

Or do you recommend that all people simply do whatever they are told, for the sake of community??

Sit. Stay. Good Boy.
 

chris155au

Active member
Really…? Don’t be lazy. This took me 10 seconds…

From the article:

"When infected with the delta variant, a given contact was 65 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated with two doses of the Pfizer vaccine. With AstraZeneca, a given contact was 36 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated."

Tell me, how effective are the vaccines? 99% right?
 

Biggles53

New member
What, protecting others who do not take measures to protect themselves?
Correct…

Are you well trained in electric circuitry to know if your house is safely wired? Did you personally supervise the formulation of the medicines you take? Were you there when your favourite sausages were being processed? How about I take your appendix out if it turns septic…? How do you know that a child at your son’s child care isn’t carrying rubella or whooping cough…?
 

chris155au

Active member
Correct…

Are you well trained in electric circuitry to know if your house is safely wired? Did you personally supervise the formulation of the medicines you take? Were you there when your favourite sausages were being processed? How about I take your appendix out if it turns septic…? How do you know that a child at your son’s child care isn’t carrying rubella or whooping cough…?
How is it possible for people to protect THEMSELVES in these situations?
 

Biggles53

New member
So we have rules to prevent us from doing what we want. And, to prevent us from doing what we want, we have rules. And, the reason why we can't do what we want, is because we have rules. And, the reason we have rules, is to prevent us from doing what we want. And so on and so on. Whether you are part of the community or not, this is still circular reasoning(begging the question).
You have a poor understanding of circularity…try this instead.

Human have a propensity to live in communities. In order to foster harmony in those communities, they formulate rules and laws designed to protect its members.
 

Biggles53

New member
How is it possible for people to protect THEMSELVES in these situations?
Exactly…! So, this is why developed societies put in place measures to ensure that protection, within reason. No single person is an expert in all of those fields, so we regulate those who specialise and we set standards that the community deigns to be desirable.

This isn’t very hard you know…
 

chris155au

Active member
Exactly…! So, this is why developed societies put in place measures to ensure that protection, within reason. No single person is an expert in all of those fields, so we regulate those who specialise and we set standards that the community deigns to be desirable.

This isn’t very hard you know…
What does this have to do with people who are vulnerable to COVID taking protective measures in order to protect themselves?
 

Biggles53

New member
Maybe these are the lateral thinkers who also realize that these childhood diseases have very low mortality rates, and can easily be treated. So why would you deprive the children of a critical social development period in their lives?
You were born after the 1950s weren't you…? If you were older, perhaps you wouldn’t make such ignorant statements. Ever seen a kid with polio? I have…there were 2 in my year at primary school. Both had to wear leg braces as a result of their infection. And they were the lucky ones…they lived.
Ever seen someone struggling to breathe with whooping cough? I have…I thought my middle brother was going to die one night when he was around 4 as he fought for every breath all night. Has lived most of his life with lung issues.
Please don’t lecture me on ‘depriving’ children…
 

Biggles53

New member
It is people like these who affect social change. NOT people like you. It is these whining complaining people, who ended slavery and segregation. It is these socially conscious people who forced equality in education, employment, housing, and the criminal justice system.
Rubbish..! You’ve hopped on the wrong horse. Social change is a measure of how we have, down through history, IMPROVED the quality of life in our communities.

You selfish whiners do exactly the opposite! ‘Me, me, me…!’ is the cry and the next person can go to hell, as long as you get ‘my rights..!’

Save your false heroism and fake altruism for someone more gullible….
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
You have a poor understanding of circularity…try this instead.
I think I have a good understanding of what circularity is in logic. I certainly hear it a lot when people can't support their own claims. Since you didn't attack any of the premises I stated, or explain WHY my statements weren't circular, I can safely assume that it is YOU who don't understand what circular reasoning means. Or, just more huff and bluff.

Human have a propensity to live in communities. In order to foster harmony in those communities, they formulate rules and laws designed to protect its members.
Where did you get this crap from? Social anthropology 101? In the real world we are NOT just observers, making silly clichés and platitudes about man's primate traits. If we had NOT learned to cooperate and accommodate, we would have been just another extinct species long ago. So, lets just call this a given! Let me add something that you left out. AS SOCIETY CHANGES, SO DO THE LAWS AND RULES THAT GOVERN IT!! These rules and laws are not stagnant. And, why do they change? Because they must keep up with environmental and social changes. These laws and rules MUST evolve with these changes. Or the growth of society will be retarded.

Although, we are talking about the government, and NOT individual communities(or a community), lets expand on this train of logic. If we go into some communities that believe that early child genital mutilation is a religious rite of passage, then parents within this community must mutilate their own children, right? What about communities that believe in honor killings to save the family's reputation? What about religious communities that see women only as chattel, and only the man can rent the apartment? Can you see that laws are made for all of society(not just for the communities). These laws and rules, are only designed only to DO THE LEAST HARM!! That's it!

Rubbish..! You’ve hopped on the wrong horse. Social change is a measure of how we have, down through history, IMPROVED the quality of life in our communities.

You selfish whiners do exactly the opposite! ‘Me, me, me…!’ is the cry and the next person can go to hell, as long as you get ‘my rights..!’

Save your false heroism and fake altruism for someone more gullible….
What the fuck are you talking about? How the fuck does my refusal to stick crap into my arm, affect YOUR right to stick anything you want up your arm? So, what is this crap about the selfish, me, me, me..? Of course this is about me, captain obvious. It has nothing to do with you. This is the entire point. I'm not trying to force you NOT to be vaccinated. I couldn't care less. So why are you telling me this crap about threatening the fabric of the community, being selfish for thinking only about myself, or whining about the same absolute right that everyone else has? Other than you simply projecting, it amazes me why you can't see the slippery slope that this can lead to. If the government tells you to stick a finger up your ass three times a day, will this argument still be your signature argument? I guarantee that there will be a few people that will give it a go.

Are you saying that these social heroes who affected social changes, were not heroes? So civil right's, women's rights, or legal rights activists were NOT the catalysts for social change? They were all just "fake" heroes, who were also not altruistic?

And, exactly how did these social changes come about? Were these improvements a product of natural selection? Were these improvements the product of conflict or harmony? How many people have actually given their lives to affect these changes? I totally disagree with you.

Sit. Stay. Good Boy.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
ou were born after the 1950s weren't you…? If you were older, perhaps you wouldn’t make such ignorant statements. Ever seen a kid with polio? I have…there were 2 in my year at primary school. Both had to wear leg braces as a result of their infection. And they were the lucky ones…they lived.
Ever seen someone struggling to breathe with whooping cough? I have…I thought my middle brother was going to die one night when he was around 4 as he fought for every breath all night. Has lived most of his life with lung issues.
Please don’t lecture me on ‘depriving’ children…
I have listened to the screams of my brother, when they were squeezing the pus out of the ringworms on his head. I have also looked after my father while he was dying from Parkinson's disease, as a teen. My sister-in-law is Down Syndrome. I have seen more horror, sickness, and death than you can imagine. And Yes, I have seen many kids suffering from MS, Polio, children with Palsy, CF, MD, and other debilitating chronic illnesses. Although I am sorry for your experience, 99% of kids infected with the polio virus, will make full recoveries in 1 - 2 weeks. Only about 0.5% of all children infected with polio, will become paralyzed.

I would never waste either of our time lecturing you. Your position is very clear, and not even God is going to change that. I simple stated the facts, and backed them up. Many preschools and childcare centers DO ADMIT UNVACCINATED CHILDREN!! As to the reasons why, I did say, "MAYBE"!!

And, if you are going to call any statement that I make as ignorant, at least have the decency and honesty, to point out what the statement is and why? Or, are they only ignorant, because you say they are??
 

mothra

Administrator
Staff member
Shell, if you need an example of vaccine mandates, currently in this country, you will be ineligible for family assistance through Centrelink if your child is not vaccinated.

Vaccine mandates are not new or novel.
 
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