Absolutely Disgraceful

Aussie

Ima da Sheriff
Staff member
yeah forgot that Aussie...... i should have had written that.... i was too busy at the grocery store buying ingredients for my "fathers day" brekky.

Getting Chinese takeaway tonight..... my secret shame :)
You should try my to die for curries!
 

chris155au

Active member
"Morality" is not synonymous with saying that one is "morally responsible" for something. When he gave his speech that morning to his supporters, they were all physically close to the Capitol. So it was not just the timing (right before the Senate was going to vote to certify the election) but the location (close to the Capitol Building) that mattered. He did not tell them to violently invade the Capitol Building, but he whipped up their emotions and sent them off. When you are the POTUS, words matter, and it is next to impossible to escape responsibility for the effect of those words. He may not have intended for them to do what they did, but because he inspired them, he is morally or at least, indirectly, responsible for what they did. That's how I see it.
If that speech didn't happen, does the riot happen do you think?

And the Democrats will all vote for her. So you have to get the Independents to vote Republican if you want the Republicans to win. The Independents voted narrowly for Trump in 2016, but heavily against Trump in 2020. If you want to get their vote, you have to come off as not being too far to the right, and you must come off as sensible, well informed, likeable and gentlemanly. I just don't think DeSantis fits that bill.
Why would independents vote for Harris over DeSantis? Isn't she on the left to the same degree as DeSantis is on the right?

I think a far left candidate, like Bernie or AOC would turn off the Independents.
How exactly does Harris differ from Sanders or AOC?

Being "as right wing as they come" is an electoral death sentence.
I got that wrong. I should have said he is as conservative as they come. But how does he differ from past Republican presidents?

DeSantis is too far right to win, and he reminds some people of Trump.
DeSantis is NOT far-right. He is just right. Same with Trump. To call him
or Trump FAR right is total nonsense.

Staunch conservatives might love him, but they are not a large enough block of voters to win with him as their candidate. Not enough Independents will go along with a staunch right winger.
But they will go along with a staunch LEFT winger?

I think the Democrats are vulnerable. I think they could lose in 2024 if the Republicans don't blow it, and if the Republicans are politically smart. But I also think the Republicans could blow this opportunity they have.
What's interesting though is the fact that the parties have no control
over who runs for them! I found that out last year! Is that correct?
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
If that speech didn't happen, does the riot happen do you think?
I don’t know.



Why would independents vote for Harris over DeSantis? Isn't she on the left to the same degree as DeSantis is on the right?



How exactly does Harris differ from Sanders or AOC?
She differs in PERCEPTION. Bernie is a Socialist. AOC comes off as unhinged and fatally ignorant.


I got that wrong. I should have said he is as conservative as they come. But how does he differ from past Republican presidents?
Reagan was quite conservative, but he was the most likable president we’ve had in a long time, and he was willing to compromise.

Bush 1 was also likable and generally conservative, but not staunchly conservative.

Bush 2 was also quite likable, and he too was not “as conservative as they come.”

Trump was quite conservative on some things, but moderate on others. He was definitely independent on some things, especially on foreign policy. I think the majority of people favored his policies. His problem was that he made too many people simply not like HIM.



DeSantis is NOT far-right. He is just right. Same with Trump. To call him
or Trump FAR right is total nonsense.
I don’t think of Trump as far right. He was a nationalist and independent.

What's interesting though is the fact that the parties have no control
over who runs for them! I found that out last year! Is that correct?
I think the parties have a lot of control, but not complete control. Remember, in 2008, the party was going to anoint Hillary, but Obama sort of burst onto the scene out of nowhere and the rest is history. In 2016, the Republican establishment wanted Jeb Bush, and everyone thought Trump’s candidacy was a joke.

In 2020, the Democratic establishment was smart, politically speaking. In 2024, the Republicans have to be just as smart as the Democrats were in 2020. The Republicans are the minority party. They MUST satisfy the mostly moderate Independents or they will lose.

That is just the hard political reality.
 

chris155au

Active member
I won't vote for a squishy moderate. They are the slow path to socialism as compared to the Democrats. Trump legitimately got more votes than ever before in 2016. Bring on Trump, Desantis, or Cruz. Otherwise, I will be voting Libertarian.
Yes, but @SethBullock's point is that you don't matter, along with other Republicans and Democrats. His point is that independents are what count.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
Yes, but @SethBullock's point is that you don't matter, along with other Republicans and Democrats. His point is that independents are what count.
I don’t like the way you characterize what I have said by saying “you don’t matter.” My belief is that Democrats will vote for the Democrat, and Republicans will vote for the Republican. (There is always a small amount of crossover voting.) But everybody’s vote matters.
 

chris155au

Active member
I don’t like the way you characterize what I have said by saying “you don’t matter.” My belief is that Democrats will vote for the Democrat, and Republicans will vote for the Republican. (There is always a small amount of crossover voting.) But everybody’s vote matters.
I should have characterised what you said as: you don't matter as much as independents. Wold that have been accurate?
 

chris155au

Active member
If that speech didn't happen, does the riot happen do you think?
I don’t know.
Then I can't see why you are even talking about the speech.

She differs in PERCEPTION. Bernie is a Socialist.
Harris is in favour of medicare for all. What Sanders-led policy is more socialist than that? You may have forgotten that she was the most liberal Senator. She also raised bail money for rioters last year. She is NO moderate.

I don’t think of Trump as far right. He was a nationalist and independent.
How is DeSantis FAR-right? I think that's nonsense to say that.

I think the parties have a lot of control, but not complete control.
What is stopping Trump from running?
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
Then I can't see why you are even talking about the speech.
I don’t know what would have happened if the speech wasn’t given, but it WAS given.



Harris is in favour of medicare for all. What Sanders-led policy is more socialist than that? You may have forgotten that she was the most liberal Senator. She also raised bail money for rioters last year. She is NO moderate.
I’m not arguing with you. But I see her as an opportunist, and I expect she will reinvent herself to suit her political needs. That’s what our President - the one-time segregationist - did.



How is DeSantis FAR-right? I think that's nonsense to say that.
“Far right” is in the eye of the beholder. It is a judgment or view. It’s not defined like the rules of baseball.


What is stopping Trump from running?
Nothing. But he won’t win. I think Independents would vote for someone who had Trump’s policy positions, but they won’t vote for Trump.
 

chris155au

Active member
What is stopping Trump from running?
Nothing. But he won’t win. I think Independents would vote for someone who had Trump’s policy positions, but they won’t vote for Trump.
You referred to the Republicans not 'blowing it', and Republicans being "politically smart' in what they do for 2024. What did you mean by that in relation to Trump running or not, given that they cannot stop him from running?
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
You referred to the Republicans not 'blowing it', and Republicans being "politically smart' in what they do for 2024. What did you mean by that in relation to Trump running or not, given that they cannot stop him from running?
They can't stop him from running, but they have to be smart enough not to nominate him. They need to find someone who shows independence and who generally agrees with Trump's policy positions:

- A strong military, but not the world's policeman. Stay out of unnecessary wars,
- Strong on border security and immigration control,
- Work toward trade fairness and equity with China and other nations,
- Strong on 2nd Amendment,
- Constructionist (or "originalist") federal judges,
- Keep taxes low on business,
- Support for law and order,
- Emphasis on all of us being Americans rather than emphasizing race,
- Strong on energy independence,
- Old fashioned respect for flag and anthem

Unlike Trump,

- Work with Congress to work towards a balanced federal budget,
- Be honest about federal programs. Tell the American people that if they want a program (medical, education, infrastructure, etc) they can have it if they're willing to pay for it. It will cost money, and that money comes from raising tax revenue.
- Be respectful of others in word and deed, even the opposition. Be classy. Show humility.
- Be articulate,
- Be well informed on what your saying. Don't be afraid to say you don't know, and don't be afraid to say you were wrong about something.
- Release your damn tax info.
- Be a cheerleader for term limits on Congress.

And a few more little things:

- Find someone with experience in government,
- Find someone with a history of admirable character,
- Find someone who is not a party drone, but instead, who can think for themself.
 

hatty

cynical profane bastard
You should try my to die for curries!
Oh man don't tease me!....... curries are my passion!....... i do a to die for lamb shoulder cooked for 8 hours with Bombay potatoes fresh mint and coriander.

I was just being a lazy cunt as it was fathers day.

What were we talking about. again?.......

Oh thats right...... America is a bin fire...... inside of a dumpster fire......... I shall not go as far as a train wreck as it can still hopefully be turned around.
 

chris155au

Active member
They will not do that. No way will Humpty go into 2024 primaries endorsed by GOP. The prick will likely be in prison.
Yeah, so that's the thing - in the US, anyone can run under the banner of any party. I'm not even sure there is such a thing as party primary endorsements. I think that the only endorsement is when the Presidential candidate is endorsed.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
@chris155au @Aussie

Trump can run in the primaries with or without anyone's endorsement. Anyone can run in the primaries.

To answer Chris's question, if he wins the primaries, he wins the nomination. When I said the "Republicans" need to be smart enough not to nominate him, I meant the masses of Republican voters. About the only thing Republican leaders can do is to be honest with the voters and explain to them that Trump cannot win the presidential election and try to discourage them from voting for him in the primaries. They need to vote for a candidate that has a chance of winning, not one that they like but has no chance of winning.
 

Squire

Active member
@chris155au @Aussie

Trump can run in the primaries with or without anyone's endorsement. Anyone can run in the primaries.

To answer Chris's question, if he wins the primaries, he wins the nomination. When I said the "Republicans" need to be smart enough not to nominate him, I meant the masses of Republican voters. About the only thing Republican leaders can do is to be honest with the voters and explain to them that Trump cannot win the presidential election and try to discourage them from voting for him in the primaries. They need to vote for a candidate that has a chance of winning, not one that they like but has no chance of winning.
How could Trump not win the GOP primaries against candidates like lying Ted Cruz, little Marco, and the invisible bullshitter Rand Paul.

Joe Biden could win the GOP primaries against those losers.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
How could Trump not win the GOP primaries against candidates like lying Ted Cruz, little Marco, and the invisible bullshitter Rand Paul.

Joe Biden could win the GOP primaries against those losers.
I didn't say he couldn't win in the primaries.

Maybe Trump can win in the primaries and get the GOP nomination. He can't win the general election, however. He would lose to virtually any Democrat.
 

Squire

Active member
I didn't say he couldn't win in the primaries.

Maybe Trump can win in the primaries and get the GOP nomination. He can't win the general election, however. He would lose to virtually any Democrat.
He would have the vote of Seth "I didn't vote for Trump" Bullock and his ilk.

Political zombies don't have free will. They do the 'master's bidding.
 
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