2 Sides To Police Shootings

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
I seriously doubt that you could find ONE person in my entire community, that would ever consider me as being an asshole. My home is open to anyone. My rib/pie open dinners, are famous in the community. Kids look forward to our halloween and christmas displays. I have put a lot of time and effort in being active, and generous in my community. I would give the shirt off my back, to encourage young minds to always think for themselves. And, to question everything.

You are strangely blind to your own faults, but hot about everyone else's.
I know that I am not perfect. This is WHY I keep asking people like you, to please point out the flaws/weaknesses in my arguments. If the facts or interpretations are wrong, then point them out. Or, at least provide your own evidence and interpretations. But basically all I get back is, "nothing wrong with your facts, logic, and interpretations, it's just that you're an asshole.". Or, "For the sake of community kumbaya, you must ignore the facts and data, and just think like the rest of us.".

Also, I certainly may be blind to my own faults, but I'm definitely not blind to yours.

Hey I spent years in hospitality, and I've seen a few.
I've also worked in Hospitality for years. And, the response to the question I asked, had nothing to do with whether it was a dumb question or not. It was about kitchen politics, and to remind you of your proper place in the pecking order. My parents taught me, that there is no such thing as a dumb question. You're not suggesting that people should be ridiculed and punished for asking dumb questions, are you? How would the person asking the question know if the question was dumb, unless he/she asks it? The point that you clearly missed, was that we should all take responsibility for our own actions, and not to blame others for them.

Bet you're not a chef anymore/ or alternatively you're one of those psycho chefs.
I will always be a chef, even though I don't cook in the industry anymore. I went back to school to improve on my skill set, and although retired now, I still set aside some time for tutoring and mentoring students in the physical sciences.

Very stupid. ! Do you even understand NOW.?
No, I don't understand. Please explain!

Look, you and John are not interested in any opinion I have that differs from yours. I try to explain WHY I feel the way I do, and you attack me. This leaves me with two choices. Don't express my opinions, or make sure that they are the same as yours. You two also have two choices. You can either defend your own opinions without personal attacks on mine, or just ignore my comments all together. So far, you have done neither.
 

johnsmith

Moderator
Staff member
No, I meant like, "Sorry, I was mistaken/wrong/misunderstood.". Not this deflection of blame, "I was misinformed.". This is just shifting the blame onto someone else, like any child would.
:smirk:smirk
You really are a moron. You claimed I don't admit when I was wrong so I showed where I admitted I was wrong in the very same discussion. Now you want to cry because my phrasing doesn't exactly match your criteria. I've got news for you dopey, and it's all bad. Your criteria is your problem, not mine.

But I, for one, wouldn't be unhappy if you would go back.
You know where your on/off button is, anytime you don't like it, use it. If you have trouble finding the on/off button ask the nearest child, they're bound to be smarter than you.

so closer to 3 then!

I have no idea what this gibberish even means
ask a 4 yr old, they'll explain it to you. Just make sure they don't share your gene pool as thats not going to end well for you

Unlike you, I don't judge the character of a person by their behavior.
:ROFL1:ROFL1

you are so full of yourself and such a terrible liar
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
Back on topic, yes, there are two sides to police shootings. I have learned that it is unwise to judge until all the facts are out.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
:smirk:smirk
You really are a moron. You claimed I don't admit when I was wrong so I showed where I admitted I was wrong in the very same discussion. Now you want to cry because my phrasing doesn't exactly match your criteria. I've got news for you dopey, and it's all bad. Your criteria is your problem, not mine.



You know where your on/off button is, anytime you don't like it, use it. If you have trouble finding the on/off button ask the nearest child, they're bound to be smarter than you.


so closer to 3 then!


ask a 4 yr old, they'll explain it to you. Just make sure they don't share your gene pool as thats not going to end well for you


:ROFL1:ROFL1

you are so full of yourself and such a terrible liar
UNCLE! :stop:stop
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
Back on topic, yes, there are two sides to police shootings. I have learned that it is unwise to judge until all the facts are out.
You are correct. There will always be at least two sides to any incident. A right, and a wrong side. And, a relevant, and an irrelevant side.

The problem is Seth, that we are not talking about unarmed victims being "tuned-up" a bit by cops in private. Or even killed in private(custody). We are talking about cops openly killing unarmed victims over national television/internet. If we can be convinced to ignore what we can actually hear and see, then justice can't be blind anymore. We are just creating new possibilities, where a person can commit justifiable and excusable homicide, and escape justice. Moral Perception vs Legal Culpability.

When we reach the point when a cop can say she thought it was her taser, and we even for one second consider this as an excuse, then we've just created a new interpretation of the statutes. And, a new legal system of justice.

The other side of the story is only conceptual, Seth. No one's mental state can be known with any certainty. This also pales when compared to the perceptual death of any unarmed victim. Especially, when shown in all its gory details over the airway.

Again, as long as cops are held accountable for their actions, then there is no problem. But unfortunately, the stats tell a different story. Thus, these incidents will continue. What's next? Shooting the witnesses, for not dropping their cameras?
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
You are correct. There will always be at least two sides to any incident. A right, and a wrong side. And, a relevant, and an irrelevant side.

The problem is Seth, that we are not talking about unarmed victims being "tuned-up" a bit by cops in private. Or even killed in private(custody). We are talking about cops openly killing unarmed victims over national television/internet. If we can be convinced to ignore what we can actually hear and see, then justice can't be blind anymore. We are just creating new possibilities, where a person can commit justifiable and excusable homicide, and escape justice. Moral Perception vs Legal Culpability.

When we reach the point when a cop can say she thought it was her taser, and we even for one second consider this as an excuse, then we've just created a new interpretation of the statutes. And, a new legal system of justice.

The other side of the story is only conceptual, Seth. No one's mental state can be known with any certainty. This also pales when compared to the perceptual death of any unarmed victim. Especially, when shown in all its gory details over the airway.

Again, as long as cops are held accountable for their actions, then there is no problem. But unfortunately, the stats tell a different story. Thus, these incidents will continue. What's next? Shooting the witnesses, for not dropping their cameras?
I was referring to the rush to judgement, and flat-out lies that are told and believed by many, before we know the facts. Rarely are any two cases exactly the same, and we should only evaluate each case when the facts are known.
 

Squire

Active member
I was referring to the rush to judgement, and flat-out lies that are told and believed by many, before we know the facts. Rarely are any two cases exactly the same, and we should only evaluate each case when the facts are known.
It is a well-established fact that the police lie about cases involving police shooting or injuring civilians.

Police should be prosecuted for deliberate lies.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
It is a well-established fact that the police lie about cases involving police shooting or injuring civilians.

Police should be prosecuted for deliberate lies.
Well, people in all walks of life lie about things. Lying is not a prosecutable crime unless it's done under oath or to commit a financial fraud. Police who lie get fired from their jobs though.
 

pinkeye

Wonder woman
.......................



I know that I am not perfect. This is WHY I keep asking people like you, to please point out the flaws/weaknesses in my arguments. If the facts or interpretations are wrong, then point them out. Or, at least provide your own evidence and interpretations. But basically all I get back is, "nothing wrong with your facts, logic, and interpretations, it's just that you're an asshole.". ...........................................

Also, I certainly may be blind to my own faults, but I'm definitely not blind to yours.



I've also worked in Hospitality for years. And, the response to the question I asked, had nothing to do with whether it was a dumb question or not. It was about kitchen politics, and to remind you of your proper place in the pecking order. My parents taught me, that there is no such thing as a dumb question. You're not suggesting that people should be ridiculed and punished for asking dumb questions, are you? How would the person asking the question know if the question was dumb, unless he/she asks it? The point that you clearly missed, was that we should all take responsibility for our own actions, and not to blame others for them.



..............................................................


No, I don't understand. Please explain!

Look, you and John are not interested in any opinion I have that differs from yours. I try to explain WHY I feel the way I do, and you attack me. This leaves me with two choices. Don't express my opinions, or make sure that they are the same as yours. You two also have two choices. You can either defend your own opinions without personal attacks on mine, or just ignore my comments all together. So far, you have done neither.
It reminded me of my early years as a chef at the Sofitel in Brisbane. I had never done a chunky fruit salad before. I asked the other chiefs, if I should I remove the watermelon seeds, or not? They told me to leave the seeds in, and the plate was returned. The chef asked me if this was my first fruit salad? I said that it was.
He took the time to show me. I could have told him that I was misinformed, by the other assholds laughing on the line.

I'll try...

See here immediately above ..? You have included yourself as an asshold.

As for the stupid question issue.?

Yes, questions CAN be stupid, when they come from an adult at work, when the answer to the question is so obvious it's a waste of everyone's time asking it. !!

Look, just let me ask you.. can you ever imagine a patron returning a fruit salad because the watermelon did NOT have seeds in it.? Seriously, the answer is so obvious it IS a STUPID question. That's all.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
I was referring to the rush to judgement, and flat-out lies that are told and believed by many, before we know the facts. Rarely are any two cases exactly the same, and we should only evaluate each case when the facts are known.
Rush to judgement, Seth. What are these "flat-out lies"? This is not rocket science. The outcomes in all these cases are the same. One(or more) UNARMED victim(s) is DEAD, and one(or more) ARMED cop(s) is ALIVE. Those are the same outcomes in every case. The only things different are the victims and the cops(although some cops are repeaters).

Now add to this, that we are watching it happen with our own eyes and ears. Are you suggesting that we should ignore what we are seeing and hearing, and should wait to hear the rationale for what we are seeing and hearing? Do you really think that the victim's loved ones give a shit, about the cops frame of mind at the time. There are only 8 excusable justifications for killing another human being,

Insanity
Actual self-defense against a deadly threat.
Actual self-defence against a deadly threat on others.
In times of war, on the battlefield.
If escape renders the public in mortal danger.
While escaping from prison.
An accident or misfortune.
Or, a state execution.

Unfortunately, it is the state that must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the homicide was excusable. The facts of the case are totally irrelevant. All that matters is how good the prosecution is. How good the defense is. Who the jurors are. And, the instructions the judge gives. It's all about optics and theatrics. Not about truth, facts, and justice. Just look at O. J.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
I'll try...

See here immediately above ..? You have included yourself as an asshold.

As for the stupid question issue.?

Yes, questions CAN be stupid, when they come from an adult at work, when the answer to the question is so obvious it's a waste of everyone's time asking it. !!

Look, just let me ask you.. can you ever imagine a patron returning a fruit salad because the watermelon did NOT have seeds in it.? Seriously, the answer is so obvious it IS a STUPID question. That's all.
Clearly in hindsight, the question I asked appears stupid. But not to me at the time. Since I never did a fruit salad plate, I looked at a returned plate which had seeds in the watermelon. This is what prompted me to ask the question in the first place. I was trying hard to make a good impression, and to present the best product I could. So I ask those with more experienced, before plating. If they say to leave the seed in, then so be it. The point I was making was, that I didn't use them as an excuse to defend my actions. I just admitted guilt and moved on.

I think that some questions that may seem stupid to you, may not be stupid to the person asking them. What do you think would happen, if teachers told their students that their questions were stupid? What effect would this have on their future learning? What if engineers, trade instructors told their customers/clients, that their questions were stupid. How do you think it would affect their business?

I totally disagree with you. People should ask any questions they want, if they are unsure about anything. If others think your questions are stupid, then they don't have to ask them. If it is just wasting other people's time, then it is other people's time, not yours. But trying to ridicule and embarass others for asking about something that they are uncertain about, is NOT very adult at all.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
@Shellandshilo1956 What are these "flat out lies"?

"Hands up! Don't shoot!" was a flat out lie in the Michael Brown case.

Saying Ma'Khia Bryant (Columbus, OH) had dropped the knife before she was shot was a lie.

Claiming that Adam Toledo was "unarmed" when he was shot (Chicago) is parsing words to distinguish between "armed" and "unarmed", a distinction that appears to have transitioned in the same second that the fatal police shot was taken. (Go to 1:30 in the video.)


And now we have the shooting of Andrew Brown, a career criminal in North Carolina who was behind the wheel of a car while officers were attempting to serve a search warrant. This one is a good example of a case that I have made no judgement on, and I won't until all the facts are clear.
 

pinkeye

Wonder woman
I have answered your question though..?

Good.

A bit like that question I deemed stupid... your 'points' are also obvious.

You complain about insults to you, but you are very free with your disdain, contempt and sarcastic comments. No whinging on that front please.

You BELABOUR your opinions and knowledge to the point where you've said it all before multiple times, mostly.! It doesn't work for me, I have to say.
You present yourself as some giant intellect, unquestionable... and well let you tell us,, we have to PROVE to YOU... our opinions.

Sorry, we don't..
and no matter how many demands you make, or your persistence, or insistence, it is NOT your call.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
I have answered your question though..?

Good.

A bit like that question I deemed stupid... your 'points' are also obvious.

You complain about insults to you, but you are very free with your disdain, contempt and sarcastic comments. No whinging on that front please.

You BELABOUR your opinions and knowledge to the point where you've said it all before multiple times, mostly.! It doesn't work for me, I have to say.
You present yourself as some giant intellect, unquestionable... and well let you tell us,, we have to PROVE to YOU... our opinions.

Sorry, we don't..
and no matter how many demands you make, or your persistence, or insistence, it is NOT your call.

What question was that?

I have no idea what you are talking about. I am certainly no great intellect, or know everything, that you claim. And, you don't have to answer my questions at all. You are the one that said questions can be stupid. I claim that no question is stupid to those asking them. And, that we should encourage all young minds to ask questions. Stupid or not.

If you disagree, that is your business, not mine. So, again, I don't know what you are on about here.
 
Last edited:

pinkeye

Wonder woman
What question was that?

I have no idea what you are talking about. I am certainly no great intellect, or know everything, that you claim. And, you don't have to answer my questions at all. You are the one that said questions can be stupid. I claim that no question is stupid to those asking them. And, that we should encourage all young minds to ask questions. Stupid or not.

If you disagree, that is your business, not mine. So, again, I don't know what you are on about here.
See the questions you asked?


I had never done a chunky fruit salad before. I asked the other chiefs, if I should I remove the watermelon seeds, or not?
How would the person asking the question know if the question was dumb, unless he/she asks it?
Those questions.
And you asked to be advised,, but you don't remember that..?

You need a chill pill mate.
 

Squire

Active member
Well, people in all walks of life lie about things. Lying is not a prosecutable crime unless it's done under oath or to commit a financial fraud. Police who lie get fired from their jobs though.
Lies by police are criminal defamation when they are about a crime or detainee.

Punishment should be more than firing. They should be prosecuted and jailed for deliberate lies.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
Lies by police are criminal defamation when they are about a crime or detainee.

Punishment should be more than firing. They should be prosecuted and jailed for deliberate lies.
Just like anyone else, they can be charged with False Swearing or Perjury if they lie under oath. But can you imagine if we locked up everyone for lying about things? Congress would have to meet in a federal prison, along with the President and Vice President.
 

DreamRyderX

Active member
Sometimes a lie is not a lie........for example.......
The U.S. Supreme Court has allowed police to falsely claim that a suspect's confederate confessed when in fact he had not (Frazier v. Cupp, 1969) and to have found a suspect's fingerprints at a crime scene when there were none (Oregon v. Mathiason, 1977)........
Source: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/05/jn

Deceptions & false statements.....to some degree.......can be acceptable ways of getting at the truth especially during police interrogations (as noted).

So, sometimes a lie is not a lie........


..
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
Sometimes a lie is not a lie........for example.......

Source: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/05/jn

Deceptions & false statements.....to some degree.......can be acceptable ways of getting at the truth especially during police interrogations (as noted).

So, sometimes a lie is not a lie........


..:50/50
Oh yeah!

I separated two vandalism suspects one time and spoke to one of them who denied it. I then went to the second one, and he denied it too. So I went back to the first one and told him the second one had “come clean” and that he was “being honest.” He immediately confessed. So I went back to the second one and told him his partner had confessed, and he confessed too.

Another time a suspect denied being in the area of a crime. I left the room for a few minutes, and when I came back to the room, I carried in a binder filled with blank paper and a blank video tape with the suspect’s name written onto the cover. I just casually set it aside, but he could see it. I then asked if there was any reason why a surveillance camera would record him in the area at the time of the crime. He hung his head, and he confessed to the crime.
 
Last edited:

johnsmith

Moderator
Staff member
I separated two vandalism suspects one time and spoke to one of them who denied it. I then went to the second one, and he denied it too. So I went back to the first one and told him the first one had “come clean” and that he was “being honest.” He immediately confessed. So I went back to the second one and told him his partner had confessed, and he confessed too.

My dad used to do that when we were young. Worked well until we caught on.
 
Top