UBI in place of welfare?

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UBI in place of welfare?

Postby Auggie » 08 Oct 2019, 19:23

The welfare budget for Australia is around $190 billion per year. https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BriefingBook45p/WelfareCost

If we eliminate welfare and replace it with a Universal Basic Income of $1000 per month for every adult over 18 years old, it would cost around $144 billion (12 million x $12,000).

Frankly, I think that UBI is better than welfare - welfare has so many strings attached and can be soul destroying for many disadvantaged people. UBI is more liberating as there are no conditions to receipt and you can spend it on whatever you want.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby HBS Guy » 08 Oct 2019, 20:20

Need a Universal Job Guarantee to go with it.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby pinkeye » 08 Oct 2019, 22:27

No you don't Monk. That is the whole point.

It accepts that there will never be enough jobs for people seeking employment.. even given that some members of society aren't interested. You can't change that by Laws. More people than jobs... and some are singled out for specific treatment under this current regime. It isn't working, is it.?

Like these political morons condemning climate change activists. ( Dutton foremost..t really his showed his colours when he urged locking them up.. etc blah etc. )My Goodness me.. :roll Is this AUSTRALIA.?

I mean.. this is a democracy.. yeah..? and this IS about freedom of speech .. Yeah ?

People have a right to demonstrate. If governments have been so lax as to allow this to fester, they ONLY HAVE THEMSELVES TO BLAME. THEY ARE NOT LISTENING.

I am in accord with these people, I just can't join them, physically.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby DonDeeHippy » 09 Oct 2019, 05:18

In our wonderful capalistic society, business would quickly inflate prices so that $1000 would only buy what $200 does now and everyone wold be in a worse position.... :purple
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby SethBullock » 09 Oct 2019, 12:26

The idea has been floated in the U.S.

The biggest problem as I see it is this:

In the U.S., a lot of welfare recipients are receiving more than $1000 month already. If you replace welfare with UBI, they'll be worse off.

Meanwhile, you'll be paying $1000/month to a lot of people who don't need it.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby Auggie » 09 Oct 2019, 18:17

DonDeeHippy wrote:In our wonderful capalistic society, business would quickly inflate prices so that $1000 would only buy what $200 does now and everyone wold be in a worse position.... :purple


That would be collusion, which is illegal.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby Auggie » 09 Oct 2019, 18:18

SethBullock wrote:In the U.S., a lot of welfare recipients are receiving more than $1000 month already.


Really??!!!!
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby SethBullock » 09 Oct 2019, 19:32

Auggie wrote:
SethBullock wrote:In the U.S., a lot of welfare recipients are receiving more than $1000 month already.


Really??!!!!


Sure. They don't necessarily get it all in cash, though. But a low-income single woman with children can live in a rent-free apartment or duplex. The rent is paid to the landlord directly from the government. Add to that her food assistance which can be between $500 and $1000/month, depending on the number of children and her income, if any. Where I live, you can't even rent a place for $1000/month.

So a UBI cannot replace welfare. Not here, anyway. It would have to be in addition to welfare, and that would mean you'd have to raise taxes.

Also, a lot of the UBI would go to people who don't need it.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby DonDeeHippy » 10 Oct 2019, 05:58

Auggie wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:In our wonderful capalistic society, business would quickly inflate prices so that $1000 would only buy what $200 does now and everyone wold be in a worse position.... :purple


That would be collusion, which is illegal.

Ohh your funny :purple
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby Auggie » 10 Oct 2019, 17:36

SethBullock wrote:
Auggie wrote:
SethBullock wrote:In the U.S., a lot of welfare recipients are receiving more than $1000 month already.


Really??!!!!


Sure. They don't necessarily get it all in cash, though. But a low-income single woman with children can live in a rent-free apartment or duplex. The rent is paid to the landlord directly from the government. Add to that her food assistance which can be between $500 and $1000/month, depending on the number of children and her income, if any. Where I live, you can't even rent a place for $1000/month.

So a UBI cannot replace welfare. Not here, anyway. It would have to be in addition to welfare, and that would mean you'd have to raise taxes.

Also, a lot of the UBI would go to people who don't need it.


I think you're understanding of welfare in America is skewed. I doubt anyone can live rent-free in America due to a handout from a government. And Foodstamps isn't that generous; it's only about $80 per week which you're entitled to.

I don't know where you're getting your numbers.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby Auggie » 10 Oct 2019, 17:41

DonDeeHippy wrote:
Auggie wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:In our wonderful capalistic society, business would quickly inflate prices so that $1000 would only buy what $200 does now and everyone wold be in a worse position.... :purple


That would be collusion, which is illegal.

Ohh your funny :purple


I wasn't being funny. I was being serious.

1) If big businesses decided to raise prices, that would be collusion, which is anti-competitive behaviour.

2) Tens of thousands of small businesses in Australia aren't going to all collude to raise their prices. Eventually, competition will keep prices down. $1000 per month isn't enough to create mass inflation.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby johnsmith » 10 Oct 2019, 17:46

Auggie wrote:I wasn't being funny. I was being serious.

1) If big businesses decided to raise prices, that would be collusion, which is anti-competitive behaviour.

2) Tens of thousands of small businesses in Australia aren't going to all collude to raise their prices. Eventually, competition will keep prices down. $1000 per month isn't enough to create mass inflation.


what happened when they subsidised childcare? Cost of childcare went up
What happened when they subsidised housing loans? House prices went up
What happened when they subsidised rent? rent went up

and so on and so on


business are generally exempt from the rules we mere plebs face Auggie. Sure, every now and then they'll fine someone a tenth of the extra profit they made by breaking the rules in the first place, but that's just so they can pretend they're doing something.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby Auggie » 10 Oct 2019, 17:51

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:I wasn't being funny. I was being serious.

1) If big businesses decided to raise prices, that would be collusion, which is anti-competitive behaviour.

2) Tens of thousands of small businesses in Australia aren't going to all collude to raise their prices. Eventually, competition will keep prices down. $1000 per month isn't enough to create mass inflation.


what happened when they subsidised childcare? Cost of childcare went up
What happened when they subsidised housing loans? House prices went up
What happened when they subsidised rent? rent went up

and so on and so on


business are generally exempt from the rules we mere plebs face Auggie. Sure, every now and then they'll fine someone a tenth of the extra profit they made by breaking the rules in the first place, but that's just so they can pretend they're doing something.


This is what libertarians argue - that people are more liberal when it's not their money to spend. So, should government's subsidize anything then? Or should we actually socialize childcare, loans, and housing? This would allow the government to control prices.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby johnsmith » 10 Oct 2019, 18:12

Auggie wrote:This is what libertarians argue - that people are more liberal when it's not their money to spend. So, should government's subsidize anything then? Or should we actually socialize childcare, loans, and housing? This would allow the government to control prices.


that's a different argument. I was just showing you that whilst you may have been technically correct about collusion laws, the reality is that prices will go up and no one will be punished for it.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby DonDeeHippy » 10 Oct 2019, 18:43

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:This is what libertarians argue - that people are more liberal when it's not their money to spend. So, should government's subsidize anything then? Or should we actually socialize childcare, loans, and housing? This would allow the government to control prices.


that's a different argument. I was just showing you that whilst you may have been technically correct about collusion laws, the reality is that prices will go up and no one will be punished for it.

:thumb (you forgot private healthcare, just another one to raise prices)
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby pinkeye » 11 Oct 2019, 01:03

SethBullock wrote:
Auggie wrote:
SethBullock wrote:In the U.S., a lot of welfare recipients are receiving more than $1000 month already.


Really??!!!!


Sure. They don't necessarily get it all in cash, though. But a low-income single woman with children can live in a rent-free apartment or duplex. The rent is paid to the landlord directly from the government. Add to that her food assistance which can be between $500 and $1000/month, depending on the number of children and her income, if any. Where I live, you can't even rent a place for $1000/month.

So a UBI cannot replace welfare. Not here, anyway. It would have to be in addition to welfare, and that would mean you'd have to raise taxes.

Also, a lot of the UBI would go to people who don't need it.



You know? I despise that word WELFARE.

We USED TO CALL IT SOCIAL SECURITY, here in Australia, until the former PM JOHN HOWARD thought.. nah lets call it WELFARE instead.
You have no idea how much I despise the concept, so commonly adopted in RICH COUNTRIES.


You say..

A '' low-income woman"...............…...…...……… raising children.

Umm .. so they don't NEED this community assistance to raise the children of the future ?

Perhaps the father died. Perhaps the father fucked off. Perhaps the Father is disabled, and unable to generate income to support the children. Oh and if you think your equivalent of OUR Veteran's Affairs Dept works any better for the disabled survivors of your wars... like Iraq yeah YOUR WAR >??? . THINK AGAIN.

OOh ooh... no we the taxpayers don't want people in need to have help. Let them suck it up.! That is the common view, it seems.

It isn't MY view.
And so foolish, selfish, and counter-productive, ………………….. further words on this escape me.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby mothra » 11 Oct 2019, 03:41

$1000/mth is not enough but roll on UBI.

Providing other safety nets are in place.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby DonDeeHippy » 11 Oct 2019, 05:20

mothra wrote:$1000/mth is not enough but roll on UBI.

Providing other safety nets are in place.

your right, that's not even rent, maybe $1000 and guaranteed shelter... :purple
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby mothra » 11 Oct 2019, 06:00

DonDeeHippy wrote:
mothra wrote:$1000/mth is not enough but roll on UBI.

Providing other safety nets are in place.

your right, that's not even rent, maybe $1000 and guaranteed shelter... :purple


Yes. And universal health care, free education etc.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby Auggie » 11 Oct 2019, 20:31

It would be interesting to see what would happen if we significantly cut income taxes (and replaced them with other taxes).
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby johnsmith » 12 Oct 2019, 10:40

Auggie wrote:It would be interesting to see what would happen if we significantly cut income taxes (and replaced them with other taxes).



the more i think of it, the more i favour a transaction tax over income tax. Any money moved, no matter where or why, incurs a small tax. Move money offshore into the caymans, or back from, you pay tax on it. Move money from Apple Australia to Apple US to pay back an imaginary loan, pay tax.

The tricky part, if possible, would be to set the amount at such a level that govt. services could still function effectively, but low income earners wouldn't be penalised. Perhaps increase pensions etc to allow compensation for tax paid, and link future increases to CPI increases.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby SethBullock » 12 Oct 2019, 11:33

pinkeye wrote:
SethBullock wrote:
Auggie wrote:
SethBullock wrote:In the U.S., a lot of welfare recipients are receiving more than $1000 month already.


Really??!!!!


Sure. They don't necessarily get it all in cash, though. But a low-income single woman with children can live in a rent-free apartment or duplex. The rent is paid to the landlord directly from the government. Add to that her food assistance which can be between $500 and $1000/month, depending on the number of children and her income, if any. Where I live, you can't even rent a place for $1000/month.

So a UBI cannot replace welfare. Not here, anyway. It would have to be in addition to welfare, and that would mean you'd have to raise taxes.

Also, a lot of the UBI would go to people who don't need it.



You know? I despise that word WELFARE.

We USED TO CALL IT SOCIAL SECURITY, here in Australia, until the former PM JOHN HOWARD thought.. nah lets call it WELFARE instead.
You have no idea how much I despise the concept, so commonly adopted in RICH COUNTRIES.


You say..

A '' low-income woman"...............…...…...……… raising children.

Umm .. so they don't NEED this community assistance to raise the children of the future ?

Perhaps the father died. Perhaps the father fucked off. Perhaps the Father is disabled, and unable to generate income to support the children. Oh and if you think your equivalent of OUR Veteran's Affairs Dept works any better for the disabled survivors of your wars... like Iraq yeah YOUR WAR >??? . THINK AGAIN.

OOh ooh... no we the taxpayers don't want people in need to have help. Let them suck it up.! That is the common view, it seems.

It isn't MY view.
And so foolish, selfish, and counter-productive, ………………….. further words on this escape me.


Pinkeye, calm down! Where did I say they didn't need it?

I support giving them this financial support! You think I want starving homeless children in the streets?

If you look at my post again, it was a defense of what they're getting. If we were to replace that assistance with a UBI, those poor people would be getting less, and people who don't need it would be getting play money to take a vacation on.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby Auggie » 13 Oct 2019, 11:05

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:It would be interesting to see what would happen if we significantly cut income taxes (and replaced them with other taxes).



the more i think of it, the more i favour a transaction tax over income tax. Any money moved, no matter where or why, incurs a small tax. Move money offshore into the caymans, or back from, you pay tax on it. Move money from Apple Australia to Apple US to pay back an imaginary loan, pay tax.

The tricky part, if possible, would be to set the amount at such a level that govt. services could still function effectively, but low income earners wouldn't be penalised. Perhaps increase pensions etc to allow compensation for tax paid, and link future increases to CPI increases.


I think that's a good idea.
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby chris155au » 16 Oct 2019, 00:55

Auggie wrote:The welfare budget for Australia is around $190 billion per year. https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BriefingBook45p/WelfareCost

If we eliminate welfare and replace it with a Universal Basic Income of $1000 per month for every adult over 18 years old, it would cost around $144 billion (12 million x $12,000).

Frankly, I think that UBI is better than welfare - welfare has so many strings attached and can be soul destroying for many disadvantaged people. UBI is more liberating as there are no conditions to receipt and you can spend it on whatever you want.


Yeah, nobody would abuse this at all! :rofl
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Re: UBI in place of welfare?

Postby chris155au » 16 Oct 2019, 00:56

HBS Guy wrote:Need a Universal Job Guarantee to go with it.

How the hell can a job be guaranteed? I've heard it all now! :rofl
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