The latest shame from Nauru

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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 14 Jul 2018, 20:26

johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Aussie wrote:So.....do you accept the current cap,


current cap is to low. We should allow between 30 and 50 ooo per annum



The Refugee Council of Australia (RCOA) recommend 30,000/annum. I idealise 50,000 though.



we can accomodate that amount easily.


How? How many Australians are out of employment? What are these 50,000 gonna live in, and on?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 14 Jul 2018, 20:28

Aussie wrote:
mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Aussie wrote:So.....do you accept the current cap,


current cap is to low. We should allow between 30 and 50 ooo per annum



The Refugee Council of Australia (RCOA) recommend 30,000/annum. I idealise 50,000 though.


What number is economically viable/sustainable? That is the basic point. Forget the Utopian 'idealising' and deal with fundamental reality.


The cost of stopping the boats has been calculated at more than $9.6 billion since 2013, and will be another $5.7 billion over the next four years, according to a study by Save the Children and UNICEF.

The study estimates the cost of keeping around 2000 asylum seekers and refugees on Manus Island and Nauru at $400,000 per person, compared with just $33,000 for those on bridging visas in the Australian community.


https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/revealed-the-cost-of-stopping-the-boats-put-at-96-billion-20160912-grea35.html

$400 000 per refugee v's $33 000

it's not even close
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 14 Jul 2018, 20:31

Aussie wrote:How? How many Australians are out of employment? What are these 50,000 gonna live in, and on?


maybe we can employ them, and the unemployed aussies already here, to build the infrastructure that we so desperately need . The unemployment rate is high because govco has sold us out to private interests.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 14 Jul 2018, 20:31

2000? You have to be kidding yourself. If we do not hold firm, there will be many more than 2000.

Dream as much as you like......but reality bites.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby mothra » 14 Jul 2018, 20:33

johnsmith wrote:
Aussie wrote:How? How many Australians are out of employment? What are these 50,000 gonna live in, and on?


maybe we can employ them, and the unemployed aussies already here, the build the infrastructure that we so desperately need . The unemployment rate is high because govco has sold us out to private interests.



And while we're at it, we can afford to raise the dole and help the homeless.

Money isn't the problem. Mismanagement of it and greed are.

Oh, and the apathy of the Australian people.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 14 Jul 2018, 20:35

johnsmith wrote:
Aussie wrote:How? How many Australians are out of employment? What are these 50,000 gonna live in, and on?


maybe we can employ them, and the unemployed aussies already here, the build the infrastructure that we so desperately need . The unemployment rate is high because govco has sold us out to private interests.


Where is the money coming from? We are in huge debt. Every cent Govt currently pays out is borrowed money, on the credit card.

That has to be fixed. I suspect that only a resources boom will get us out of this mess.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 14 Jul 2018, 20:35

Aussie wrote:2000? You have to be kidding yourself. If we do not hold firm, there will be many more than 2000.

Dream as much as you like......but reality bites.



Sorry, I forgot to add the link, I've since added it

that article is talking about those on Nauru and Manus from 2013 to 2016 ..... 2000

it doesn't include the cost of keeping the navy on patrol 365 days a year or any of the bribes, etc the govt. has paid out to refugees.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby mothra » 14 Jul 2018, 20:36

Aussie wrote:2000? You have to be kidding yourself. If we do not hold firm, there will be many more than 2000.

Dream as much as you like......but reality bites.


You seem reluctant to factor humane, equipped regional centres into your derision.

Why is that?

Did you read what Wilkie said? What the UN have been up to?

I've only just posted the links.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 14 Jul 2018, 20:37

Aussie wrote:
Where is the money coming from?


we have plenty of money ... the problem is where it is being spent.

The cost of stopping the boats has been calculated at more than $9.6 billion since 2013,


how many people can we employ with $9.6B Aussie?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 14 Jul 2018, 20:42

mothra wrote:
Aussie wrote:2000? You have to be kidding yourself. If we do not hold firm, there will be many more than 2000.

Dream as much as you like......but reality bites.


You seem reluctant to factor humane, equipped regional centres into your derision.

Why is that?


Not at all. That is your strawman. Humane is fine, reality comes at a cost. For example, I'd love to save all the "pooches" on death row around the World, but that would not only populate the World with too many pooches, it is also totally never gonna happen.

Did you read what Wilkie said? What the UN have been up to?

I've only just posted the links.


Dunno what the UN have been up to. Not my problem. We are discussing this here, not in the UN.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby mothra » 14 Jul 2018, 20:43

Strawman?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 14 Jul 2018, 20:44

johnsmith wrote:
Aussie wrote:
Where is the money coming from?


we have plenty of money ... the problem is where it is being spent.

The cost of stopping the boats has been calculated at more than $9.6 billion since 2013,


how many people can we employ with $9.6B Aussie?


Plenty for a while I guess. So where is that coming from and will it keep coming, or a one off?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 14 Jul 2018, 20:45

mothra wrote:Strawman?


Yes, strawman. We can't afford what you are proposing. It is Utopian.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 14 Jul 2018, 20:53

Aussie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Aussie wrote:
Where is the money coming from?


we have plenty of money ... the problem is where it is being spent.

The cost of stopping the boats has been calculated at more than $9.6 billion since 2013,


how many people can we employ with $9.6B Aussie?


Plenty for a while I guess. So where is that coming from and will it keep coming, or a one off?


its what we've spent to date to keep the gulags going
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 14 Jul 2018, 20:56

So....we no longer have that money.

We have to be realistic about this. Australia cannot employ the people we have here already. That is a fact.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 14 Jul 2018, 21:12

Aussie wrote:So....we no longer have that money.

We have to be realistic about this. Australia cannot employ the people we have here already. That is a fact.


so we can find the money to torture, people but can't find that same money to treat people decently? get real aussie.

Start with turnbulls $24B a year in tax cuts, more than enough money there.

You need to stop believing the hype aussie, it's not about money. Money is the excuse they use to lure the simpletons into thinking we have to be inhumane.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 14 Jul 2018, 21:21

There are competing demands, as always. Simple as that. We can't afford everything, and 50,000 pa immigration (with zero employment for them) is not sustainable.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 23:45

mothra wrote:
Aussie wrote:[


There is no solution, other than....remove the reason these people are leaving Home.


Yes. There is. Humane, facilitated refugee camps in regional locations which are sponsored by the world's wealthier nations. We cut people smugglers off at the root by providing safe transport for these people ourselves.

All off-shore detainees to be flown to Australia immediately and reunited with their families.


So, you basically want to do the job of the people smugglers themselves by providing a taxi service to Australia? Do you think that is likely to be an incentive or disincentive for people smuggling?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 23:49

mothra wrote:
mothra wrote:
And absolutely nobody has said, ever, that migration should be uncapped.


So, at some point then, we are going to be inhumane, aren’t we? Once the 50,000 is reached then, all the rest stay in processing centres until we can release them the following the year.

By the way, the majority of refugees are processed on shore. The offshore centres are for unlawful entry, in order to deter people coming to Australia illegally.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 23:52

johnsmith wrote:
Aussie wrote:So....we no longer have that money.

We have to be realistic about this. Australia cannot employ the people we have here already. That is a fact.


so we can find the money to torture, people but can't find that same money to treat people decently? get real aussie.

Start with turnbulls $24B a year in tax cuts, more than enough money there.

You need to stop believing the hype aussie, it's not about money. Money is the excuse they use to lure the simpletons into thinking we have to be inhumane.


The cost is in deterrence, John Smith. The cost of not deterring is greater than deterring in be long term.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 15 Jul 2018, 09:42

Aussie wrote:There are competing demands, as always. Simple as that. We can't afford everything, and 50,000 pa immigration (with zero employment for them) is not sustainable.



tax cuts to big business aren't a demand, they're a luxury. As far as I'm concerned there is no competition. The welfare of human beings is first and foremost and always should be.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 15 Jul 2018, 09:43

Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Aussie wrote:[


There is no solution, other than....remove the reason these people are leaving Home.


Yes. There is. Humane, facilitated refugee camps in regional locations which are sponsored by the world's wealthier nations. We cut people smugglers off at the root by providing safe transport for these people ourselves.

All off-shore detainees to be flown to Australia immediately and reunited with their families.


So, you basically want to do the job of the people smugglers themselves by providing a taxi service to Australia? Do you think that is likely to be an incentive or disincentive for people smuggling?



why would anyone get on a leaky boat when they can be flown over is relative safety?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 15 Jul 2018, 09:44

Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Aussie wrote:So....we no longer have that money.

We have to be realistic about this. Australia cannot employ the people we have here already. That is a fact.


so we can find the money to torture, people but can't find that same money to treat people decently? get real aussie.

Start with turnbulls $24B a year in tax cuts, more than enough money there.

You need to stop believing the hype aussie, it's not about money. Money is the excuse they use to lure the simpletons into thinking we have to be inhumane.


The cost is in deterrence, John Smith. The cost of not deterring is greater than deterring in be long term.



bullshit. Even if we assumed the bullshit the right throws out that they spend the rest of their lives on the dole, do you know how many people you can pay the dole to for the next 50 yrs with $24B
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 15 Jul 2018, 09:46

Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
mothra wrote:
And absolutely nobody has said, ever, that migration should be uncapped.


So, at some point then, we are going to be inhumane, aren’t we? Once the 50,000 is reached then, all the rest stay in processing centres until we can release them the following the year.

By the way, the majority of refugees are processed on shore. The offshore centres are for unlawful entry, in order to deter people coming to Australia illegally.


two can play thAt game auggie. At some point the global population is going to reach 50B and then you'll have to let them in anyway :oops :roll
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby HBS Guy » 15 Jul 2018, 11:06

Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
mothra wrote:
And absolutely nobody has said, ever, that migration should be uncapped.


So, at some point then, we are going to be inhumane, aren’t we? Once the 50,000 is reached then, all the rest stay in processing centres until we can release them the following the year.

By the way, the majority of refugees are processed on shore. The offshore centres are for unlawful entry, in order to deter people coming to Australia illegally.

There are no illegal ASs. It is not illegal to cross a border to seek asylum—we DID sign the UN Refugee Charter. So you can call crossing the sea border irregular arrival but NOT illegal arrival. The stinking Libs always call them illegals but that is NOT what they are! Please remember that.
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