Electric Vehicles this week

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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby Dax » 20 Feb 2020, 08:27

DonDeeHippy wrote:Lifepro4 if it could be used by car manufactures they would of done it, the chemistry just isn't right for their requirements.

Shame you didn't get a Tesla you can program it for maximum charge and it wont go past that amount :) wouldn't of had to install a relay switch.
Does the relay switch ruin your warrantee ?

Out of interest what does Hyundai do for their $180 set price service ? wouldn't imagine much to be looked at... I guess you will need to do it to keep it under warrantee..
Most dealers will go broke if they cant service cars.... :purple


Lifepo4 is more expensive to produce, has less density and voltage than li-ion or li-poly, (3.2v compared to 3.7v per cell) so they use cost, weight, voltage and density as an excuse to use potential bombs in their EV's.

The Kona charger is fully programmable, the relay switch is on my house, not the actual charger. That's because I know the charge controls, may not relate to the reality. My friend who has a model 3, tried to use the programming for her charger, but found at times it just keeps charging to full and the only way she can control it is to disconnect. Until she got a sparky to install a relay a switch in her house and also on her business, so I did the same. It's fine when on the road, you can quit charging whenever you want, but overnight and away from the car, means the charging is in the control of the system and can go wrong, as it seems to have in lots of EV charging fires.

Have no idea what the set service fee does, They have done a first service after 5000klms, that took about 20 minutes, cost me nothing and from my understanding, it was to adjust and balance the system. My next service is under 15000klms away, will find out then and there is a charge for that.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby DonDeeHippy » 24 Feb 2020, 09:12

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/19/ca ... tic-cells/

The battery news keep getting crazier each day. Exactly one week ago, we learned that Tesla might be assembling a battery cell production line in Fremont, then a few days ago that they are buying some battery startups in Denver and even Elon seems to have visited. Then, yesterday, we learned that Tesla in China might use lithium-iron-phosphate (LFP) batteries from CATL* in the Model 3 SR+, and that it’s all made possible by putting cells straight into the battery pack without modules. What we learned in today’s revelation is that those LFP batteries will be prismatic, and the pack might be built — or is at least designed by — CATL utilizing its cell-in-pack technology, something that Tesla is also working on but has thus far not yet implemented. Simon Moores of Benchmark Mineral Intelligence was the first to break the news on Twitter.

In this strange circumstance, Tesla can maintain its quality, reduce the price, and use LFP prismatic cells. While each cell is taxed more, LFP batteries last longer, so that makes up the difference. The main disadvantage LFP batteries have is lower energy density. However, with this rare cell-to-pack technology, we can make up the difference to create the 50 kWh pack that the Model 3 SR+ needs.

The move to LiFeP batteries, with much lower chance of Fire and no cobalt is the way forward you have been looking for Dax, be interesting to see more details on the differences of range and power these batteries make and more importantly will they sell. :)
Also will they do the same for worldwide sales for those that are fearful of thermal runaway and the longer battery life this new battery will provide...
One thing is for sure, never think Tesla will keep doing things one way :purple
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby Dax » 24 Feb 2020, 11:18

LFP cells are lifepo4 and they are moving to them because of he number of charging fires that are growing,. The drive to same money by using li-ion bombs is typical of corporate egoism, same with the tesla powerwall, they are overheating and collapsing because they are not suited to large capacity storage.

The only way you can use li-ion/li-poly safely is to only keep them charged between 55% and 75%. Using them below 55% and above 75%, shortens their lives cause overheating and finally they collapse after just a few short years. One of my phones has a li-poly battery, its over 7 years old and still functions properly, it has never had a DOD below 55% and never had SOC above 75%. My smart phone is over 5 years old and has a lifepo4 in it because the li-poly one failed to hold usable charge after 2 years and hear that from many people that their batteries don't last very long.
Just about all DYO off grid systems use lifepo4 and had my oldest 120ah portable pack for over 12 years and its still provides 100% of it's energy. Have some li-ion vehicle starter batteries, which lasted 2-3 years and now they are used to drive some security cameras as they only charge to just over 50%.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby DonDeeHippy » 24 Feb 2020, 13:59

Actually the number of fires are decreasing and the Tesla 3 has never had thermal runaway , well for Tesla anyways, same can't be said for other manufacturers as there have been a few fires, with the Kona now taking the lead for most fires for time being available and numbers sold and not even been from catastrophic crashes. Good thing you put in a relay.
The Powerwall 1 and 2 have NEVER had any issue's with the batteries, as they are never in high speed accidents and don't get compromised :)
I'd say the reason they are going with the new batteries is to keep china happy and to try out new stuff to see if it works, after all the car demands in China are a very small range and not very fast....
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby Dax » 24 Feb 2020, 14:45

DonDeeHippy wrote: [b]with the Kona now taking the lead for most fires for time being available and numbers sold and not even been from catastrophic crashes[/b]. Good thing you put in a relay.


Really, how about some evidence to support this claim, to my knowledge there has been one kona incident and that was one that blew up in a canadian garage and according to the owner it was not charging. So far there has been no indication as to why it exploded.

There have been at least 15 tesla fires, yet only one recorded kona fire so how can you claim the kona leads in fires. Or is this just another incident of fools making things up in a bizarre attempt to gain the high ground for some pathetic egocentric reason.

Only heard of one powerwall fire, but did read reports a year or so ago that powerwalls were collapsing, (failing) and have no other evidence
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby DonDeeHippy » 24 Feb 2020, 15:10

Dax wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote: [b]with the Kona now taking the lead for most fires for time being available and numbers sold and not even been from catastrophic crashes[/b]. Good thing you put in a relay.


Really, how about some evidence to support this claim, to my knowledge there has been one kona incident and that was one that blew up in a canadian garage and according to the owner it was not charging. So far there has been no indication as to why it exploded.

There have been at least 15 tesla fires, yet only one recorded kona fire so how can you claim the kona leads in fires. Or is this just another incident of fools making things up in a bizarre attempt to gain the high ground for some pathetic egocentric reason.

Only heard of one powerwall fire, but did read reports a year or so ago that powerwalls were collapsing, (failing) and have no other evidence

Hyundai Kona Electric[edit]
On July 26, 2019, a Kona Electric was parked in a residential garage in Montreal, Canada. The owner reported that the car was not plugged in at the time. An unprovoked fire began, and this triggered an explosion that projected the garage door across the street and caused damage to the attached structure. There were no injuries.[110]

Another Kona Electric caught fire while charging in Gangneung, Gangwon Province, South Korea on July 28, 2019.

A fire in a Kona Electric occurred in Bucheon, Gyeonggi Province, South Korea on August 9, 2019. The flames began at the floor of the rear seat of the vehicle, which was parked at the time.[112]

On August 13, 2019 a Kona Electric caught fire while being charged in an underground parking level at an apartment in Sejong City, South Korea. The vehicle was completely destroyed.[113]

One million teslas and a period of 8 years and 15 fires ,most after bad accidents...…
Hyundai/kia sold 85,00 plug ins last year, so id guess around 50,000 Kona's sold for a period of one year.... 4 fires in 2 months , so far not looking good.
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_ ... 12588.html
A fire in a Hyundai Ioniq electric vehicle that occurred in Daegu on Aug. 1, 2018, began in the battery below the trunk while the car was stopped.
Sorry my mistake I thought it was 5 but the other one was another Hyundai electric car :purple


Funny never seen one article on a Powerwall catching on fire or any info on Powerwall's failing because of the batteries, seen the usual things go wrong with them, inverters, fans, motherboards.. If you could find a article that would be great.... :purple
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby Dax » 25 Feb 2020, 12:04

Think I found the link about EV fires, yes there are 4 kona fires, but there are a growing number of model S fires over the last year or so which goes with what I've said about li-ion/li-poly cells. The number will grow in all ev's as their lithium bombs age and become unstable.

It matters not which car it is, they all use the virtual same chemistries which have been proven to fail as they age, over a decade ago. The only really safe lithium is lifepo4, which they are now calling LFP and unless they change their charge parameters and SOC upper limits in li-ion/poly, there will be more fires and explosions. Lithium-ion/poly become very unstable with age and using them to their maximum and minimum capacities, enhances that fact.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby HBS Guy » 25 Feb 2020, 13:36

That only works if indeed it was the batteries that caught fire. You have not demonstrated that.

4 Kona fires sounds bad because they have far fewer cars out there than Tesla does.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby HBS Guy » 25 Feb 2020, 13:43

I don’t have a dog in this fight.I could care less if Tesla or Kona or whoever wins out and don’t care wether it is batteries or capacitors or hydrogen fuel cells that win out. Musk has done a great job ramping up Tesla production and starting to make a difference on the roads—fewer ICE vehicles which is what I want to see.

Dax mentioned something about the Tesla chassis. Modern cars do not have chassis, not as a separate frame anyway.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby DonDeeHippy » 26 Feb 2020, 06:26

Dax wrote:Think I found the link about EV fires, yes there are 4 kona fires, but there are a growing number of model S fires over the last year or so which goes with what I've said about li-ion/li-poly cells. The number will grow in all ev's as their lithium bombs age and become unstable.

It matters not which car it is, they all use the virtual same chemistries which have been proven to fail as they age, over a decade ago. The only really safe lithium is lifepo4, which they are now calling LFP and unless they change their charge parameters and SOC upper limits in li-ion/poly, there will be more fires and explosions. Lithium-ion/poly become very unstable with age and using them to their maximum and minimum capacities, enhances that fact.

this would be a problem if the fact that there are 580 car fires a day in just the USA, the media just focus on Electric Vehicle car fires more..Statistically EV's are 20 times less likely to catch on fire...… (for any reason not just thermal runaway)
I do agree with you that car manufacturers are trying to get the most out of their batteries and this can lead to fires, They will keep playing around with the chemistry of these batteries so they don't catch on fire, it's not good for business.
There are so many things in a EV that can catch on fire, you have a very powerful powertrain and lots of flammable plastic, the recall for the NIO last year in china was because the wiring harness was shorting out and catching fire and burning the cars down...
Chevy after all these years of making F trucks had to do a recall of millions because their cold weather heating system was catching cars on fire.
In the last 2 years both BMW and GM (with a car this time in Brazil) had to recall cars because they where catching fire while stationary, now they have the same 12 Volt system as EV's.....
As monk said how many of these fires are from Thermal Meltdown . Or just like the Nio's that have something wrong with the very highly powered electrical system or even 12volt system like other cars.
Every car no matter the drivetrain is full of highly flammable contents and a massive electrical system that in many places can short out and start a fire...

1 in 1375 vehicles in the USA catch fire every year....(guess rest of the world would be much the same)
1 in 12,00 Kona's
1 in 360,000 Tesla 3's (and the main battery pack didn't catch on fire, no thermal runaway)
1 in 40,000 Model S (last year there where 5 fires and 200,000 cars, looks like 2 where stationary and burnt down, Tesla took Daxs advice and limited the amount the batteries could be charged with a over the air update and no stationary fires since August, one was charging , one in a major crash and one just a small fire at a tyre..)

Unlike the 1 in 1375 vehicle fires that happen every year, you can bet every EV is fully investigated by the car company (and local government department) responsible and trying to frantically figure out how to change them ... All eyes are on EV's and every little problem is Major news..... :purple
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby Dax » 26 Feb 2020, 09:31

Babble on all you like, you first have to correlate ev fires and ICE vehicle fires, with the number of ICE vehicle on the road compared to EV's. Then you will see where they stand in numbers and the ICE vehicle should have many more fires statistically then EV's, they have many aspects in their vehicles which are ignition points, including oils and fuels. Whilst Ev's have only one ignition point, their batteries, take them out and nothing can catch fire unless another ignition point is introduced.

All the excuses and denials make no difference to the facts, the lithium chemistry used in most EV, are known fire hazards and potential bombs. You idiots are trying to make this as some form of competition as to what is the best EV, when my comments all relate to the chemistry of the packs they use compared to safe lithium chemistry and it's all about profit, not safety.

Couldn't care less what is the best EV, all I'm interested is in them becoming main stream and providing safe economical and environmentally friendly transport. You can stick your penchant for ideological who is better wars to yourselves, it seems that's all you've got in your heads, being right.

The reality is none of you have the knowledge or experience to comment on lithium energy storage, or for that matter EV's. At least I've been using lithium for over 2 decades and lifepo4 for over 12 years, running my home and farm. Have driven a lot of them in my search and have one, what model Ev do you lot drive.

Only bought a kona because it's the vest available in Aus for the price. I'll get rid of it to my daughter as soon as come across a better safer EV and had my eye on a Rivian, but there are so many new ones coming on the market, will wait for awhile to get what provides me with the best all round experience.

My highlander cost me $66000 on the road, the standard kona EV, just over $59000. Tesla standard model 3 SR costs over $70000 on the road and has less range than the kona. The model 3 LR costs over $90000 and the performance one, over $100000. According to my friend who bought an SR, her conclusion is it's not as good as my kona, for range and comfort. Personally the couple of times I've driven in her model 3, felt it had better comfort that the Kona, but haven't been for a really long drive in a tesla.

Seems none of you fools can have decent conversation about anything without insulting those who make an effort to put some relevant content into the discussion. You complain and throw insults when someone gives it back to you, which shows how infantile and knowledge less you really are.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby HBS Guy » 26 Feb 2020, 11:39

None of the batteries caught on fire, Dax, so your last post is wrong and irrelevant. Just your ideology coming to the fore regardless of facts.

Any motor vehicle, ICE, battery, fuel cell, capacitor, has a lot of energy in a concentrated source, all are fire dangers.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby Dax » 26 Feb 2020, 13:08

HBS Guy wrote:None of the batteries caught on fire, Dax, so your last post is wrong and irrelevant. Just your ideology coming to the fore regardless of facts.

Any motor vehicle, ICE, battery, fuel cell, capacitor, has a lot of energy in a concentrated source, all are fire dangers.


So smart arse what catches fire in an EV and provides the ignition point. You are prepared to deny facts, how stupidity dumb and programmed are you. You know nothing about lithium, yet you refuse to accept recognised and accepted facts.

In one sentence you deny ev batteries catch fire, then in the next sentence you claim they are all fire dangers.

If you're game, read this link, but like all simply programmed clones, you will refuse to accept any evidence that goes against your dumb stupidity and desperation to be right, when everything proves you are wrong.

"Lithium batteries are compact, lightweight batteries that hold considerable charge and fare well under constant discharge-recharge conditions. The batteries are found everywhere — in laptop computers, cameras, cell phones, and electric cars. Although accidents are rare, those that do occur may be spectacular, resulting in an explosion or fire. In order to understand why these batteries catch fire and how to minimize the risk of an accident, it helps to understand how the batteries function."

https://www.thoughtco.com/why-lithium-b ... ire-606814
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby HBS Guy » 26 Feb 2020, 13:21

If none of the batteries in any of the Teslas that burned caught fire than your post is wrong and irrelevant and ideological.

Lots of stuff in Teslas, Konas, ICE to catch fire apart from the energy source: upholstery, plastic insulation around electric wiring, various fluids/lubricants.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby Dax » 27 Feb 2020, 04:30

HBS Guy wrote:If none of the batteries in any of the Teslas that burned caught fire than your post is wrong and irrelevant and ideological.

Lots of stuff in Teslas, Konas, ICE to catch fire apart from the energy source: upholstery, plastic insulation around electric wiring, various fluids/lubricants.


Wow :rofl lubricants, where are they in an EV, they have electric motors, no lubricants idiot and you still need and ignition point to start a fire in upholstery etc, where does that come from and how does a fires start when the vehicle is sitting or charging, in the tyres :rofl

You're not worth communicating with, so ridiculously ignorant and psychopathic, no wonder you're life is so boringly stuffed.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby DonDeeHippy » 27 Feb 2020, 05:56

Dax wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:If none of the batteries in any of the Teslas that burned caught fire than your post is wrong and irrelevant and ideological.

Lots of stuff in Teslas, Konas, ICE to catch fire apart from the energy source: upholstery, plastic insulation around electric wiring, various fluids/lubricants.


Wow :rofl lubricants, where are they in an EV, they have electric motors, no lubricants idiot and you still need and ignition point to start a fire in upholstery etc, where does that come from and how does a fires start when the vehicle is sitting or charging, in the tyres :rofl

You're not worth communicating with, so ridiculously ignorant and psychopathic, no wonder you're life is so boringly stuffed.

Dax you are making 2 separate points..
The battery chemistry is the cause of thermal runaway... Yes that has very rarely happened and mostly after high impacts after cashes when the battery has been compromised…
your saying that a EV's cant catch on fire any other way... just wrong....
Your Kona has a 12 Volt separate system that is never turned off unless you dislocate the battery... there is always a chance of fire happening.....

Given that the Kona Electric’s chassis is basically one giant battery, why does it still need a conventional 12V battery?

A: To run all the usual ancillaries and accessories such as the radio, airbags, dash, wipers, lights etc., some of which are shared with the conventional petrol-engine Kona and are designed to run on 12-volt.

there is also the very high Wattage powertrain that can short and start fires...

Dax I showed the number of ICE vehicles that catch on fire in the USA, which part of 1 in 1375 vehicles catch on fire in the USA per year don't you understand....
I've repeatedly posted the numbers but I will again
70 Million Vehicles in the USA
50,000 car fires per year
80 Deaths
so 1 in 1375 vehicles in the USA catch on Fire per year.....
I'm sure if I did some research I could find how many where caused by the fuel source and not electrical faults or others, I'll do that if you research how many EV fires are caused because of thermal runaway....
There is also the possibility of a car catching on fire then igniting the fuel source, so even though the fuel source has burnt it wasn't the cause of the fire.... :purple
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby HBS Guy » 27 Feb 2020, 06:25

Of course there are lubricants else the bearings would seize up! You need to think things through not just apply your ideology, you see? Grease in the car hingers, boot & bonnet release systems etc.

Any fuel source: diesel, petrol, battery, capacitor, fuel cell, hydrogen tank is a source of danger: concentrated energy. But it does not appear any Tesla batteries have caught fire.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby DonDeeHippy » 27 Feb 2020, 07:08

HBS Guy wrote:Of course there are lubricants else the bearings would seize up! You need to think things through not just apply your ideology, you see? Grease in the car hingers, boot & bonnet release systems etc.

Any fuel source: diesel, petrol, battery, capacitor, fuel cell, hydrogen tank is a source of danger: concentrated energy. But it does not appear any Tesla batteries have caught fire.

There have been a Few Tesla Batteries that have caught on fire Monk, The Model S and X have both had their batteries burn down, Usually after big accidents and the Battery pack has been compromised... There have also been 2 or 3 that have completely burned down while a charging stations, not sure if that was because the battery got to hot and thermal runaway happened or a short somewhere which led to the entire car burning down...
Last year there also where 2 stationary fires of Model S, again not sure if Thermal Runaway was responsible or a short somewhere that led to the entire car burning up. After the 2 stationary fires Tesla did a over the air update and reserved more battery space to counter this, so it does point to the battery getting to hot..

Now What I think your referring too, the Tesla 3 has never had a main Battery fire, so no Thermal Runaway, they have sold almost 500,000 (now best selling EV in total EV sales) of these cars over the last 2 years, This model has a different chemistry battery and a different fire suppression system and looks to be working.
Last year a Model 3 crashed into a parked Truck while traveling at 120km's a hour... About 10 minutes after the crash and after they got the 3 occupants out the car it caught of fire with exploding air bags the lot and even though the entire car was in flames the Main Battery pack did not Catch on fire, so no thermal Runaway even though the car was engulfed in flames... Very Impressive. :purple
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby HBS Guy » 27 Feb 2020, 07:18

Yeah. My point tho is: any powered vehicle carries a concentrated energy source and fire is always a present danger. I don’t care what sort of car or truck, it carries a lot of energy and that presents some chance of fire happening. And there is plenty of other flammable material in/on a vehicle including paint.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby DonDeeHippy » 27 Feb 2020, 07:42

HBS Guy wrote:Yeah. My point tho is: any powered vehicle carries a concentrated energy source and fire is always a present danger. I don’t care what sort of car or truck, it carries a lot of energy and that presents some chance of fire happening. And there is plenty of other flammable material in/on a vehicle including paint.


Yup just about everything in a modern car that isn't structural is Plastic and the kilometres of insulated wire are all plastic...
Rats chewing wires and then the shorting out has started many fires as well, as well as leaf's and other flammables settling on hot spots... :purple
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby HBS Guy » 27 Feb 2020, 08:00

And there is always a hot spot because of the energy being used. ICE much more than non-combustion engines but hotspots exist in all forms motorised transport.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby DonDeeHippy » 29 Feb 2020, 06:39

https://insideevs.com/news/401367/toyot ... on-aircon/
Hey Dax have a look at this, Maybe kill 2 Birds with one stone and convert your old cruiser instead of waiting for a New EV suv/Ute.... :purple
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby DonDeeHippy » 29 Feb 2020, 06:46

The Model 3 took home the 2020 UK Car of the Year award. It was the overall winner in the Best Executive vehicle category.
Interestingly, and on a very positive note, the Jaguar I-Pace received the award for 2019, so this means an EV has won two years in a row. :purple
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby HBS Guy » 29 Feb 2020, 17:06

But we need a $30K peoples’ car (an electric volks wagen.)

Would be good to get rid of fossil fuel cars: I wonder sometimes just how much pollution people along main roads must breath in day in day out. Plus the noise pollution.
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Re: Electric Vehicles this week

Postby DonDeeHippy » 01 Mar 2020, 05:25

HBS Guy wrote:But we need a $30K peoples’ car (an electric volks wagen.)

Would be good to get rid of fossil fuel cars: I wonder sometimes just how much pollution people along main roads must breath in day in day out. Plus the noise pollution.

Yup and that's what we need Hyundai, Nissan and Toyota for... They should be bringing out Normal EV's..
Tesla is a luxury car maker and it's prices are actually the same or less than their competition, including Fossil Fuel Cars...

The others need to make cheep ones, the Kona and Leaf are way to expensive for what they are.. The Kona is more than double the price of it's petrol double, way to much and the Kona almost costs as much as a Tesla...Hyundai have a luxury brand "Genesis" when they bring out EV's they will be the same price as their normal brand or more expensive than Tesla's.
China are making cheaper EV's and as they get better with Manufacturing they will get better, MG and Volvo are already going to bring EV's this year to Australia :purple
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