Political Animal Australia

Posted: **08 Jul 2019, 12:54**

DonDeeHippy wrote:
Dax wrote:The problem with conversions is the space and weight of the drive train, you either have to use it or develop new wheels and axle setups. That's the big drawback to range and ease of conversion, they are working on an easily made axle/wheel setup that can be dropped into just about any car, with either 4-2-1 motors.

When you take out the standard drive chain/axle setup you save a couple of hundred kilos, which makes a massive difference to range and amount of batteries you can carry. Once they work that all out, conversions for urban vehicles should come in at around $5000-$10000. Rural long range they are looking at less than $20000, for a range of over 500klms and 4x4.
Using 4 motors, you don't need axles or diffs, each motor operates like a LSD, which sounds great, but if the electronics carks it, you may just go round in circles, or not be able to turn. So fail safe systems have to be developed and those are the hold ups for conversions at the moment.

Ahh makes sense, most available conversions are just connected to the gearbox , which I find very uneconomical when I looked into it. I see there are companies still trying to get in wheel motors working, lots of engineering needed to stop inertia though.
Please if they get a web site set up id be very interested to have a look...
You know the worse thing is the old 161 motor is almost 70 years old and still gets 10 litres for 100km, just shows how little they bothered to improve modern motors in efficiency...

So what's the exact problem with in wheel motors?

:huh

(At the moment it sounds like the pay-off is not there but you might be hinting at a possible theoretical pay-off at some future point for the industry in time?!!?)

Posted: **08 Jul 2019, 17:30**

Bongalong wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:
Dax wrote:The problem with conversions is the space and weight of the drive train, you either have to use it or develop new wheels and axle setups. That's the big drawback to range and ease of conversion, they are working on an easily made axle/wheel setup that can be dropped into just about any car, with either 4-2-1 motors.

When you take out the standard drive chain/axle setup you save a couple of hundred kilos, which makes a massive difference to range and amount of batteries you can carry. Once they work that all out, conversions for urban vehicles should come in at around $5000-$10000. Rural long range they are looking at less than $20000, for a range of over 500klms and 4x4.
Using 4 motors, you don't need axles or diffs, each motor operates like a LSD, which sounds great, but if the electronics carks it, you may just go round in circles, or not be able to turn. So fail safe systems have to be developed and those are the hold ups for conversions at the moment.

Ahh makes sense, most available conversions are just connected to the gearbox , which I find very uneconomical when I looked into it. I see there are companies still trying to get in wheel motors working, lots of engineering needed to stop inertia though.
Please if they get a web site set up id be very interested to have a look...
You know the worse thing is the old 161 motor is almost 70 years old and still gets 10 litres for 100km, just shows how little they bothered to improve modern motors in efficiency...

So what's the exact problem with in wheel motors?

(At the moment it sounds like the pay-off is not there but you might be hinting at a possible theoretical pay-off at some future point for the industry in time?!!?)

a thing they call unsprung weight, it's basically the more weight on wheel the more it will bounce when u hit a bump in the road... SO if you have a electric motor as well at the wheel and controllers etc it's more prone to damaging itself and ripping itself off the springs /suspencion.....
Also if the motor is between the 2 wheels and fixed to the car, with 2 axels going to the wheels, the torque isnt all on the suspension as well....they use a independant suspencion on EV's now...

Posted: **09 Jul 2019, 05:21**

Rivian and a few others have 4 electric motors and another manufacturer has 3, the problem here is accessing those kind of motors and they are working on getting drive train weight down so battery weight can be increased. Won't be that long before they crack it and conversions become cheaper and more common. Low range of conversions is because of the huge weight of the original drive train, reducing battery capacity.

Here's a nice and very handy EV which is helping the elderly keep trucking along.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-09/ ... e/11249332

"Yvonne Burton was just a child when Australia's first mass-produced car, the FX Holden, came onto the market.

Now, she's sitting at a purpose-made bus stop in her retirement village, waiting for her lift — an automated vehicle (AV) — to take her to her weekly art class.

The retirement village where Ms Burton lives in Toormina, just outside of Coffs Harbour on the NSW north coast, is trialling some of the latest driverless technology the world has to offer.

"I think we've been very lucky to have this experience," she said.

The electric AV, nicknamed the BusBot, is similar to a mini-bus but with six inward facing seats and no steering wheel."

Posted: **09 Jul 2019, 07:39**

Dax wrote:Rivian and a few others have 4 electric motors and another manufacturer has 3, the problem here is accessing those kind of motors and they are working on getting drive train weight down so battery weight can be increased. Won't be that long before they crack it and conversions become cheaper and more common. Low range of conversions is because of the huge weight of the original drive train, reducing battery capacity.

Here's a nice and very handy EV which is helping the elderly keep trucking along.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-09/ ... e/11249332

"Yvonne Burton was just a child when Australia's first mass-produced car, the FX Holden, came onto the market.

Now, she's sitting at a purpose-made bus stop in her retirement village, waiting for her lift — an automated vehicle (AV) — to take her to her weekly art class.

The retirement village where Ms Burton lives in Toormina, just outside of Coffs Harbour on the NSW north coast, is trialling some of the latest driverless technology the world has to offer.

"I think we've been very lucky to have this experience," she said.

The electric AV, nicknamed the BusBot, is similar to a mini-bus but with six inward facing seats and no steering wheel."

yes it looks like 4 engines are becoming standard in high end EV's, I guess 4 smaller motors is better than 2, plus no transfer case would be needed... Probably less strain on two 300hp motors than one 600hp motor or even worse one 1200hp motor.

the bus in Coffs sounds great, I'm sure in Byron there is a solar power tourist train as well.. :purple

Posted: **09 Jul 2019, 16:31**

From what I've been told by my EV friends, using 4 motors reduces weight, motor size is very small as they get more hp to the ground without any bits and pieces, they are part of the wheel and pivot with the wheels. This means you always have the motors run line with the wheels direction, so there is less drag and with virtually no moving parts other than motor and pivot points. Don't quote me on this, was listening to a conversation between EV techies, so didn't get the intricate bits. The gains with wheel based motors result in a 15-25% gain in SOS (state of charge), instead of having to use a 600hp motor or two 300hp, they can use 4x100hp motors and get more power to the ground than 1-2 motors, which results in more economy. Less tyre wear because there is much less drag on the tyres when being forced round a corner, the motors pull the wheels round the corner and they get more back from regenerative braking than single dual motors do. They say with a single motors you lose a lot of energy in the drag and slipping caused by the running gear and drive train.

So it seems 4 wheel mounted motors may become the norm for middle and high end ev's. Have already hassled hem fr a price to convert my series hdj80 cruiser to 4 motor ev. I fit can be done and still compete as the best off road family vehicle there is for sale a reasonable price.

We may see the resurrection of king pins, that way the motor can fit between the wishbone suspension and he back wheels will turn as well, so if yo get bogged, instead of having to go backwards and forwards, you just turn the wheels and go sideways and same with parking, pull up at a space, turn the wheels inward and slide in, cool eh.

Just love my constant 4x4 cruiser, like driving on rails in mas conditions so can only imagine what it will be like to drive a big 4x4 4 motor drive EV, with built in solar panels and a pop up small wind generator and adventuring bashing here we come. The new solar cells mentioned in another thread along with the graphene solar cells, which will at least double output, implanting solar cells into the cars body, will mean you can go just about anywhere and al you have to do is sit round for a couple of days at worst. You will have power no matter where you are and will be comfortable.

Posted: **09 Jul 2019, 17:46**

DonDeeHippy wrote:
Bongalong wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:
Dax wrote:The problem with conversions is the space and weight of the drive train, you either have to use it or develop new wheels and axle setups. That's the big drawback to range and ease of conversion, they are working on an easily made axle/wheel setup that can be dropped into just about any car, with either 4-2-1 motors.

When you take out the standard drive chain/axle setup you save a couple of hundred kilos, which makes a massive difference to range and amount of batteries you can carry. Once they work that all out, conversions for urban vehicles should come in at around $5000-$10000. Rural long range they are looking at less than $20000, for a range of over 500klms and 4x4.
Using 4 motors, you don't need axles or diffs, each motor operates like a LSD, which sounds great, but if the electronics carks it, you may just go round in circles, or not be able to turn. So fail safe systems have to be developed and those are the hold ups for conversions at the moment.

Ahh makes sense, most available conversions are just connected to the gearbox , which I find very uneconomical when I looked into it. I see there are companies still trying to get in wheel motors working, lots of engineering needed to stop inertia though.
Please if they get a web site set up id be very interested to have a look...
You know the worse thing is the old 161 motor is almost 70 years old and still gets 10 litres for 100km, just shows how little they bothered to improve modern motors in efficiency...

So what's the exact problem with in wheel motors?

(At the moment it sounds like the pay-off is not there but you might be hinting at a possible theoretical pay-off at some future point for the industry in time?!!?)

a thing they call unsprung weight, it's basically the more weight on wheel the more it will bounce when u hit a bump in the road... SO if you have a electric motor as well at the wheel and controllers etc it's more prone to damaging itself and ripping itself off the springs /suspencion.....
Also if the motor is between the 2 wheels and fixed to the car, with 2 axels going to the wheels, the torque isnt all on the suspension as well....they use a independant suspencion on EV's now...

Thanks goes to you, wholeheartedly, for explaining what the kids going forward have to deal with... with the safety of your knowledge: WELL DONE ,SIR :beer

Posted: **10 Jul 2019, 06:25**

Dax wrote:From what I've been told by my EV friends, using 4 motors reduces weight, motor size is very small as they get more hp to the ground without any bits and pieces, they are part of the wheel and pivot with the wheels. This means you always have the motors run line with the wheels direction, so there is less drag and with virtually no moving parts other than motor and pivot points. Don't quote me on this, was listening to a conversation between EV techies, so didn't get the intricate bits. The gains with wheel based motors result in a 15-25% gain in SOS (state of charge), instead of having to use a 600hp motor or two 300hp, they can use 4x100hp motors and get more power to the ground than 1-2 motors, which results in more economy. Less tyre wear because there is much less drag on the tyres when being forced round a corner, the motors pull the wheels round the corner and they get more back from regenerative braking than single dual motors do. They say with a single motors you lose a lot of energy in the drag and slipping caused by the running gear and drive train.

So it seems 4 wheel mounted motors may become the norm for middle and high end ev's. Have already hassled hem fr a price to convert my series hdj80 cruiser to 4 motor ev. I fit can be done and still compete as the best off road family vehicle there is for sale a reasonable price.

We may see the resurrection of king pins, that way the motor can fit between the wishbone suspension and he back wheels will turn as well, so if yo get bogged, instead of having to go backwards and forwards, you just turn the wheels and go sideways and same with parking, pull up at a space, turn the wheels inward and slide in, cool eh.

Just love my constant 4x4 cruiser, like driving on rails in mas conditions so can only imagine what it will be like to drive a big 4x4 4 motor drive EV, with built in solar panels and a pop up small wind generator and adventuring bashing here we come. The new solar cells mentioned in another thread along with the graphene solar cells, which will at least double output, implanting solar cells into the cars body, will mean you can go just about anywhere and al you have to do is sit round for a couple of days at worst. You will have power no matter where you are and will be comfortable.

yup and there is no reason the roof and awnings of a caravan cant be solar panels as well...
I see Toyota have put panels on a Prius and doing some testing they apparently have 800w on the thing..... :purple

Posted: **14 Jul 2019, 10:15**

Another range test of a tesla model 3 that says it only gets 400klm at 90 kph and 300klm at 120kph. The Kona on the Hume at 110kph, did 425klm before deciding to stop for a charge and only used the regen a couple of times, when stopping for a break and when there was a hold up because of a crash and unlike ICE vehicles, you don't use any power when stopped.

https://insideevs.com/news/359667/video ... ange-test/

Posted: **14 Jul 2019, 16:00**

The quantitative argument is what can change the future for the better and nothing else.

Posted: **15 Jul 2019, 15:57**

Bongalong wrote:The quantitative argument is what can change the future for the better and nothing else.

That's easy to answer, get rid of 99.9% of humans and the future will become a better place instantly, plus survivors wouldn't have to wait to have their cars charged.

This is an interesting article, show where Evs a going and how we will soon have such a variety, wont be long before everyone is driving one, new or second hand.

"The ID.3 is the first dedicated electric-powered model from Volkswagen. Based on a newly developed platform known internally as the MEB (Modularen Elektrik Baukasten, or Modular Electric Toolkit), it is also the first in an extended range of up to 10 new electric models set to carry the name of Volkswagen’s new ID. sub-brand, many of which have already been revealed in lightly veiled concept guise."

https://

www.drive.com.au/review/volkswagen-id-3 ... ign=tile-2

There are many second hand tesla's for sale in Aus, on wonders why they are on th market an the same in the USA.

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/tesla/

https://www.drive.com.au/car-sales/buy- ... alia/tesla

https://www.carsguide.com.au/buy-a-car/ ... pes/tesla/

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-cars-vans- ... els/c18320

Posted: **16 Jul 2019, 06:55**

There are very few Tesla's for sale really, there are about 3000 sold and 100 up for sale
here are some numbers I've made the search from 2015, that when Tesla's came into the market for the 3 big luxury vehicals, BMW, Merc and Audi... look at the numbers for sale and the low KM's I think it's more a luxury vehicle thing to only own a car for a few years and low KM's.

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/result ... 5..%29.%29

BMW 3500
https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/result ... 5..%29.%29

Merc 5200

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/result ... 5..%29.%29

AUDI 3100

You can do a search on any car and see lots for sale that are only a year of 2 old and low kilometres,,, i don't know why this happens, i guess every car has a human story behind it...

I can tell you one thing though if Tesla get their cars to be Autonomous and capable of being Robot taxi's all these second-hand cars already have the hardware to do so and will be bought up very quickly as they will be a appreciating assets... Tesla are forecasting this to be a reality by the end of the year, probably next year... :purple

Posted: **16 Jul 2019, 13:56**

Dax wrote:
Bongalong wrote:The quantitative argument is what can change the future for the better and nothing else.

That's easy to answer, get rid of 99.9% of humans and the future will become a better place instantly, plus survivors wouldn't have to wait to have their cars charged.

This is an interesting article, show where Evs a going and how we will soon have such a variety, wont be long before everyone is driving one, new or second hand.

"The ID.3 is the first dedicated electric-powered model from Volkswagen. Based on a newly developed platform known internally as the MEB (Modularen Elektrik Baukasten, or Modular Electric Toolkit), it is also the first in an extended range of up to 10 new electric models set to carry the name of Volkswagen’s new ID. sub-brand, many of which have already been revealed in lightly veiled concept guise."

https://

http://www.drive.com.au/review/volkswag ... ign=tile-2

There are many second hand tesla's for sale in Aus, on wonders why they are on th market an the same in the USA.

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/tesla/

https://www.drive.com.au/car-sales/buy- ... alia/tesla

https://www.carsguide.com.au/buy-a-car/ ... pes/tesla/

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-cars-vans- ... els/c18320

Well I didn't mean that argument: but, yeh, fair enough... the population problem will have to be addressed at some point and somehow because if it's left to natural attrition it could get very ugly and I suppose it already is... because oil is a resource and 9-11 used airplanes as the iconic weapon to start what could probably be semi-defined as the population debate we all need to have. (Though I'm obviously being very abstract in my thinking there!)

Maybe it's time to have that debate very soon infact!

Posted: **19 Jul 2019, 09:01**

Tesla has included a 620km Long Range Model 3 in its newly updated configurator across Model S, Model X and Model 3 EVs in Australia and New Zealand for deliveries due to start September.
The Model 3 now has three choices – the Standard Range Plus (460km range) at about A$66,000, Long Range (620km) for A$85,000 and Performance (560km) for A$91,200, previously limited to two.
The first deliveries happened in Sydney on the the 16th...

Posted: **19 Jul 2019, 09:20**

http://evtalk.com.au/worlds-largest-ev-proves-worth/

A Komatsu e-Dumper from Kuhn Schweiz AG, reported to be the world’s largest operating EV, has been proving its worth during the past year.
The e-Dumper weighs 111 tonnes (fully laden) and transports 60 tonnes of lime and marl (clay and lime rock or soil) from a mountain extraction area in Switzerland to a transport system below, recovering energy through regenerative braking on the downhill run.
The truck saves about 50,000 tonnes of diesel and 130 tonnes of carbon dioxide annually.
It has a 4.5-tonne 600kWh battery provided by Lithium Storage GmbH, used to power the uphill (unladen) run, and the surplus is fed into the electricity grid.

The e-Dumper’s tyres are more than 1.8 metres high and it is able handle inclines of 13%. Drivers have to climb nine stairs to the cab.

unfortunately the article doesn't say how much electricity it used and a cost difference of diesel and Electric... but even so that mush fossil fuel not being burnt and put in the air is impressive...

Posted: **25 Jul 2019, 08:44**

The ford FG150E, is based on a Rivian chassis and drive system, which has 4 wheel motors and proves the power of EV's, when ti pulled a 453 tonne train along and did it twice. Firs time it was one million pounds of weight, second 1.25 million pounds, not bad for an EV. Can't wait until they deliver my Rivian, SUV early next year.

"Tesla towed a Boeing 787 Dreamliner, and Mini pulled a Boeing 777F cargo plane, but Ford has one-upped them all with one million pounds (453 tonnes) worth of train carriages.

The all-electric F-150 prototype dragged 10 double-decker cargo carriages loaded with 42 F-150s more than 300m, as Ford works to prove electric vehicles are prepared for a life of hard work."

https://www.drive.com.au/news/ford-f-15 ... ign=tile-2

Posted: **25 Jul 2019, 10:17**

Promising. With rapid building of RE and some sensible nuke could just avert disaster.

Posted: **01 Aug 2019, 08:37**

https://insideevs.com/news/362437/hyund ... explosion/

Be careful Dax and don't park you new car in a garage....

The explosion involving a Hyundai Kona Electric in Montreal, Canada, is still in the midst of a lot of dark clouds. Not literally speaking, but in the sense that no one knows what really happened. As expected, Hyundai wants to have an answer soon. And it will help authorities and fire investigators to determine the causes.
At least this is what Jean-François Taylor, Hyundai Canada spokesman, told Automotive News Canada regarding the accident. “We have indeed been in contact with the customer. As is always the case, the safety of our customers is our first priority and we will push to fully understand the issue as quickly as possible.”

Posted: **07 Aug 2019, 09:36**

Not worried about the kona blowing up, the one that did, seems has nothing to do with it being electric and more likely a bomb or something else in the garage. They have been having a few car bombings in the area.

Now this is a step forward, even though this full electric tugboat cost twice as much as a diesel, over it's life they will save about $12 million on operations costs. Most people forget, unlike ice vehicles, EV's have very little operational or maintenance costs. Just beginning to see how much time and money the Kona is saving me and only had it a couple of months. Seems the Kiwi's are far ahead of us with being the first port to have an all electric tug.

"This tug will be no joke - full size, 70-ton bollard pull and a few MWh of batteries.

Most of the electrification efforts are currently put into cars, but there is a huge appetite to electrify ships too.

Ports of Auckland in New Zealand since 2016 has been working on the idea of an electric tug. As there were no such products on the market, Dutch company Damen Shipyards decided to develop a full-size, 70-tonne bollard pull, electric tug. The first such unit, called Damen RSD-E Tug 2513, will be delivered to Ports of Auckland in 2021.

To meet the performance of the port's strongest diesel tug Hauraki, also built by Damen, the RSD-E Tug 2513 will need a few MWh of batteries. It will be able to do 3-4 operations (usually in 3-4 hours) and then recharge over of a period of two hours."

https://insideevs.com/news/363707/world ... ctric-tug/

Posted: **08 Aug 2019, 06:09**

Yeah there is a ferry in Norway that’s electric a few years old now and they say it’s 80% less to run than diesel

Posted: **08 Aug 2019, 18:19**

while visiting a customer the other day i saw he had an electric van in his parking lot, complete with extension lead running from it, across the car park into his workshop. Looked like an import, it certainly wasn't new and it had what looked like japanese characters (letters) all over it. I didn't recognise the badge.

Posted: **10 Aug 2019, 07:16**

Seems the truth about tesla is finally coming out ans people are suing.

"A Tesla Inc owner has filed a lawsuit against the electric vehicle maker, claiming the company limited the battery range of older vehicles via a software update to avoid a costly recall to fix what plaintiffs allege are defective batteries.

The lawsuit filed on Wednesday in Northern California federal court alleges fraud and seeks class action status for the potentially 'thousands' of such Model S and X owners around the world who have seen the range of their older-generation batteries suddenly curtailed, some by as much as 40 miles (64 km).

The lost range has been a hot topic since May on online owner forums, such as TeslaMotorsClub.com, in which many owners detail how their battery range has fallen.

Users say Tesla has taken away range for which they paid extra money via the software update, thereby devaluing the car, limiting the distance they can travel and forcing them to recharge more frequently."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... pdate.html

Posted: **10 Aug 2019, 07:42**

Dax wrote:Seems the truth about tesla is finally coming out ans people are suing.

"A Tesla Inc owner has filed a lawsuit against the electric vehicle maker, claiming the company limited the battery range of older vehicles via a software update to avoid a costly recall to fix what plaintiffs allege are defective batteries.

The lawsuit filed on Wednesday in Northern California federal court alleges fraud and seeks class action status for the potentially 'thousands' of such Model S and X owners around the world who have seen the range of their older-generation batteries suddenly curtailed, some by as much as 40 miles (64 km).

The lost range has been a hot topic since May on online owner forums, such as TeslaMotorsClub.com, in which many owners detail how their battery range has fallen.

Users say Tesla has taken away range for which they paid extra money via the software update, thereby devaluing the car, limiting the distance they can travel and forcing them to recharge more frequently."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... pdate.html

https://insideevs.com/news/364347/tesla ... e-lawsuit/

We asked Tesla to manifest on the lawsuit and here is the company's reply:
“Delivering the best possible customer experience with the highest regard for safety has always been our priority, and we do not disregard either of these things as this complaint suggests. A very small percentage of owners of older Model S and Model X vehicles may have noticed a small reduction in range when charging to a maximum state of charge following a software update designed to improve battery longevity. As previously noted, we have been working to mitigate the impact on range for these owners and have been rolling out over-the-air updates to address this issue since last week.”

Yes it will be interesting to see how this pans out... as Tesla are the only car company to do over the air updates there will be teething problems... I suppose they will have to bring to the customers attention if they are going to change anything that will decrease performance for safety and/or reliability and let the customer decide if they want that, or take their chances.

Tesla do seam i bit deaf sometimes with complaints but lawsuits and media quickly bring them around... What i find amazing though is Tesla are still making a effort to support their old vehicles even after Warrantee is over.... No other car company gives a dam about a car once it is sold....They just do a few cosmetic changes every year and change the model year and never go near them again..... :purple

Posted: **10 Aug 2019, 10:17**

Is dax doing cartwheels?

Posted: **10 Aug 2019, 10:45**

Electric tractor!

Posted: **10 Aug 2019, 12:01**

HBS Guy wrote:Electric tractor!

Um, no!

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