Forcing Moves... lol

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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 28 Jun 2019, 18:01

Actually, there is another source of RE and it is in SA! What am I babbling about? Geothermal energy—hot rocks at depth!

Queensland was a wash out for GE—the rocks between surface and the hot rocks way too fractured, steam escaped. Cooper Basin is perfect. Geothermal Energy Australia has proved geothermal there works. They have not developed it, maybe waiting for a carbon price?

SA govt should tell them to develop the GE province or lose it. Then SA would be nearly energy self sufficient (with some solar and wind at top Eyre Peninsula, floating solar panels over reservoirs.)

Just leaves the other 5 states :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby pinkeye » 28 Jun 2019, 20:10

and so much more potential...

this is just a beginning of awareness for many..

but... it's too late .. for our civilisation.

Let's hope , if humans survive, they'll have enough data , so they don't have to re-invent the wheel.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby DonDeeHippy » 29 Jun 2019, 05:42

HBS Guy wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:It is less than .5GWatt nameplate capacity. Would need 40 of those.

We could dam a couple more rivers in Tasmania.

Hells bells I am not against renewable energy, I am all for it. We have 10 years, the bloody Libs will waste 3 of those. Need storage to make up for intermittency. I would also argue for more research into wave and tide—tides at least are regular, eh? But that is too long term.

Small utility scale solar can be done fairly quickly—we have plenty deserts and salt lakes. That will ease supply to the big cities. I think we will need to rely on these in the short term. Lakes Gairdner and Torrens could perhaps be used. Need storage and wind could supplement the solar—located nearby or wherever. Ultrahigh voltage DC line to transmit the power. Build small just never stop building. One technique but not enough.

If only fusion would be commercialised. Maybe with AI the magnetic containment can be managed.

I suggest people make sure they have rooftop solar and look into a windmill or two—only about $600 each, can provide power when the sun doesn’t shine, charge the battery up at night type of thing. I think brownouts, blackouts and load shedding will be increasing facts of life in thios country. Nobody has offered any realistic replacement of 10GWatt and that includes me.

Wind increasingly should be off shore: more wind, more constant wind and no NIMBYism! The hills behind Victor Harbot, Pt Elliot, Middleton here are ideal: wind for 364 days of the year. The other side of Backstairs Passage, Kangaroo Is is similarly blessed but they won’t have wind either. If I was energy czar I would load shed both those areas first, hah!

umm .5 gwh X 20 +10 gwh, ok maybe 21
Did you notice the projected overall cost is less price per KWH than just the cost of coal, not including the coal plant... I think you will find the Initial cost and running costs of a Nuke is more expensive as well and any engineer can say ohh this Nuke reactor is a good one, not like Japan or Russia, id rather look at history and not take the chance...
In the USA their whole government is trying to tear down renewable energy, yet the individuals and states are approving them because it's the cheapest solution... That is the reality..

For home use, just solar and Batteries, you can get biodiesel generators and even filters to make your own fairly cheep for those few days a year you need extra power....
As long as well have our love of cooking in oil we can access biodiesel

Yes offshore is more expensive but it seems the wind blows more and they are doing very well..
The fact is now, even with Battery backup, solar and wind is the cheapest source of new power and that includes Nuclear :purple


Yes, I know the cost of RE is less than that of coal. I do not think we can build enough fast enough with the Libs in power.

Biodiesel, that is an idea! Doubt by myself I would generate enough waste cooking oil but I bet the local chippy would give/sell me some. Need a filter etc and I have no idea how long it could be stored but that is just stuff to research: if biodiesel can power trucks it can power a generator! Heh, can also use it in a Coleman duel fuel camp cooker, save on LPG!

Looked in Ebay “Biodiesel” looks like additives can be bought, don’t see filters etc.

you do realize Adani was started by Labor (captain Bligh) and finally approved by Labor... I don't think we can look to them Either...…..
But if you look at the USA ATM the government are anti renewable but business and Individuals are use it because it's cheaper...
http://micropowergrids.com.au/_Diesel_G ... index.html
Look at this web site, they are trying to sell stuff so beware, but they really give good explanations and prices on solar batteries and Generators, some very interesting stuff in here... :purple
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 29 Jun 2019, 05:56

I will.

Mrs Poo gave Adani unlimited ground water—fucking stupid!
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 03 Jul 2019, 07:50

How the Big Battery saved the grid and SA:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/how-the-tesla-big-battery-kept-the-lights-on-in-south-australia-20393/

The big battery reacts in microseconds unlike lumbering fossil fuel installations. The battery makes money for its owners by buying wind power when it is plentiful and cheap and sells it when wind power is lacking. But its job is to keep the grid up when a fossil fuel generator crashes off line or lightning takes out part of the grid.

To tie the linked article to this thread—it highlights how old our fleet of coal fired generators is.
In contrast, the response to the frequency excursions from the gas plants in the state was poor, with “little corresponding short-term movement in the output of synchronous generation to correct frequency” and only a “slow and limited response to system frequency.”

As a whole, AEMO is particularly concerned that the degradation of frequency response from the big thermal generators over the last decade means that the system now relies on industrial and consumer loads being switched off when such events occur. This was not always the case.

“Initial frequency response from some generation was delayed to the point where it was of no benefit in containing the rapid changes in frequency that immediately follow a major power system event like regional separation,” it notes.

“The speed of frequency control response from these generators must be improved where possible, for it to be effective in containing the critical initial deviation.”


Ha, I am the only one here prepared to look into a future and I got told by one clown that I am “panicking” :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby Dax » 03 Jul 2019, 11:21

Big difference between looking into the future and being prepared for the future, you're doing neither. To look into the future you have to see the reality and not what you want to see, being prepared for the future, is another matter and takes a different approach t the short term approach you have.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 03 Jul 2019, 18:25

Bullshit. You had nothing to offer.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby pinkeye » 03 Jul 2019, 23:03

settle down fellas. This isn't a contest.

I appreciate your inputs.. Let's go with them eh?
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 04 Jul 2019, 20:29

Actually while the Libs dream on, the states are going gangbusters on RE:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/02/while-the-federal-government-is-in-denial-the-states-are-making-staggering-progress-on-renewable-energy

Still remains to be seen HM actual capacity and if that is even halfway enough but good anyway.

Will finish reading the article and may add to this.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 04 Jul 2019, 20:33

Ha! Tasmania is already at 100% renewables—all hydro :bgrin

SA is next best and even the Lib govt here wants to move to 100% renewables. Hope less reliance on wind, need a mix. Nuclear is a good backstop. Spare me your crap “old tech” etc—how long have windmills been in use? Cars are bloody 19th century! Site it properly, waste disposal easy with Broken Hill nearby. Wind should increasingly be in the open ocean, more and more reliable wind.

Rooftop solar could be a virtual power station. Site them on public and rental housing, let the tenants make some money selling the power.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 04 Jul 2019, 20:54

NSW is words but not much action.

Article mentions nameplate capacity but not effective capacity. When you work on effective capacity the picture is

Will also be nice to see some recycling centre set up, recycle the metal and more importantly the rare earths. That works well we could buy scrap from elsewhere cheap and keep the rare earths for our needs.

The article is too optimistic by far IMHO. Nuclear should have a place and we need storage for when the wind don’t blow and the sun don’t shine. By storage I do not mean Big Batteries. These can smooth out fluctuations in wind but are mainly to protect the grid when a coal fired generator crashes offline as they are wont to do.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby pinkeye » 04 Jul 2019, 23:50

HBS Guy wrote:Ha! Tasmania is already at 100% renewables—all hydro :bgrin

SA is next best and even the Lib govt here wants to move to 100% renewables. Hope less reliance on wind, need a mix. Nuclear is a good backstop. Spare me your crap “old tech” etc—how long have windmills been in use? Cars are bloody 19th century! Site it properly, waste disposal easy with Broken Hill nearby. Wind should increasingly be in the open ocean, more and more reliable wind.

Rooftop solar could be a virtual power station. Site them on public and rental housing, let the tenants make some money selling the power.



Big difference between Windmills and Nuclear Power Reactors.
OK I get you love Nuclear... no-one else does.. OK..?

Windmills on the other hand.. :buddy Bonzer.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Jul 2019, 07:47

Windmills will not close the power gap that is starting to happen and will get worse when Liddell closes.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby DonDeeHippy » 05 Jul 2019, 08:39

How much does it cost to build a nuclear power plant 2018?
Between 2002 and 2008, for example, cost estimates for new nuclear plant construction rose from between $2 billion and $4 billion per unit to $9 billion UDS per unit, according to a 2009 UCS report, while experience with new construction in Europe has seen costs continue to soar.Apr 5, 2019

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics ... wer_plants

In the United Kingdom and the United States cost overruns on nuclear plants contributed to the bankruptcies of several utility companies. In the United States these losses helped usher in energy deregulation in the mid-1990s that saw rising electricity rates and power blackouts in California. When the UK began privatizing utilities, its nuclear reactors "were so unprofitable they could not be sold." Eventually in 1996, the government gave them away. But the company that took them over, British Energy, had to be bailed out in 2004 to the extent of 3.4 billion pounds.[66

Decommissioning[edit]
Main article: Nuclear decommissioning
At the end of a nuclear plant's lifetime, the plant must be decommissioned. This entails either dismantling, safe storage or entombment. In the United States, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) requires plants to finish the process within 60 years of closing. Since it may cost $500 million or more to shut down and decommission a plant, the NRC requires plant owners to set aside money when the plant is still operating to pay for the future shutdown costs.[82]
Decommissioning a reactor that has undergone a meltdown is inevitably more difficult and expensive. Three Mile Island was decommissioned 14 years after its incident for $837 million.[83] The cost of the Fukushima disaster cleanup is not yet known, but has been estimated to cost around $100 billion.[84] Chernobyl is not yet decommissioned, different estimates put the end date between 2013[85] and 2020.[86

A 2011 report for the Union of Concerned Scientists stated that "the costs of preventing nuclear proliferation and terrorism should be recognized as negative externalities of civilian nuclear power, thoroughly evaluated, and integrated into economic assessments—just as global warming emissions are increasingly identified as a cost in the economics of coal-fired electricity"

Nuclear Power plants tend to be very competitive in areas where other fuel resources are not readily available[citation needed] — France, most notably, has almost no native supplies of fossil fuels.[137] France's nuclear power experience has also been one of paradoxically increasing rather than decreasing costs over time.[138][139

The nuclear power industry in Western nations has a history of construction delays, cost overruns, plant cancellations, and nuclear safety issues despite significant government subsidies and support.[151][152][153] In December 2013, Forbes magazine reported that, in developed countries, "reactors are not a viable source of new power".[154] Even in developed nations where they make economic sense, they are not feasible because nuclear’s “enormous costs, political and popular opposition, and regulatory uncertainty”.

All this uncertainty and high costs plus the fact that if they approved a Nuke plant tomorrow it would be 10-15 years at least before it would be online....
The cost of renewables has been dropping massively each year and already solar and wind are the cheapest forms of new generation, that and quickly lowering storage costs , it just doesn't make sense to go Nuke, look at how badly they have performed in the USA and Canada and you will get a idea of how bad they will go in Australia…

Find one success story of a Nuke plant in the USA, UK or Canada and I might change my mind...…
The idea is great, the actual implementation of it would be a big mistake....:purple
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Jul 2019, 08:49

I would definitely advocate nuclear. It would take 20 years from starting site works to raising steam so will not prevent to 10Gw power gap. That will have to be covered by revamping some of the end of life coal plants.

Not enough to install name plate wind farms, need storage. Ideally have a mix including wave and/or tide but wave/tide are a long way off and early attempts have not been successful. This makes a mainly wind-based network unstable, vulnerable to windless days. The Big Battery is not designed to supply power to houses in the event of a blackout.

Definitely suggest everyone installs roof top solar, backed up with a windmill (about $600, can recharge the battery overnight ready for the morning loads) and battery. Rely on yourself more.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Jul 2019, 08:56

Yes, I am not advocating a huge nuclear plant—have always said modular was the goal.

After stirring the hive with a stick :roll :bgrin I did say nuclear would take too long—that is the main objection to it. Libs just gave away $160Bn in tax cuts to the already rich—to put your figures in perspective.

Just trying to get some reality in the debate. Just saying “wind, bonza” is not going to replace 10GWatt of coal fired power.

Liddell will be the third coal fired plant to close with nothing done to replace it. When will people wake up? When the fifth or sixth closes, power costs are through the roof, brown outs, blackouts and load shedding are routine? That is the end result of neoliberalism—no money for education, social welfare, infrastructure etc. The billionaires will retire to the South Isl of NZ. We. . .?
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby Bongalong » 05 Jul 2019, 12:10

HBS Guy wrote:NSW is words but not much action.

Article mentions nameplate capacity but not effective capacity. When you work on effective capacity the picture is

Will also be nice to see some recycling centre set up, recycle the metal and more importantly the rare earths. That works well we could buy scrap from elsewhere cheap and keep the rare earths for our needs.

The article is too optimistic by far IMHO. Nuclear should have a place and we need storage for when the wind don’t blow and the sun don’t shine. By storage I do not mean Big Batteries. These can smooth out fluctuations in wind but are mainly to protect the grid when a coal fired generator crashes offline as they are wont to do.

What about damming the ocean? I don't know what that means but maybe some lateral thinking is needed......
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Jul 2019, 13:28

Would need a suitable natural formation, let the tide in, let it go out only through hydro turbines. Problem—sea water is highly corrosive, of course.

Another source of energy we could tap: temperature difference between deep and cold sea and warm/hot salty pools, one of our salt lakes would be perfect: thermoelectricity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_generator

Has not been tried, I think.

We could also ameliorate the effect AGW has on us by permanently flooding Lake Torrens and Lake Eyre, inland sea. Offer contracts to extract the salt, used to make chlorine and caustic soda. Lake Eyre would be flooded by pumps and eventually syphon action. The rivers feeding Lake Eyre could instead be used to send water south—the south is drying out according to BoM and CSIRO. But we can’t afford anything like this—just gave a $160Bn tax cut we cannot afford.

No money left for infrastructure why I urge those here to instal rooftop solar, a windmill or two and a battery. This could be done small scale, 300W solar panels, a battery not lead acid and a car fridge—at least keep perishables cold. At worst: a good quality esky, 2-3 2L milk etc bottles full of frozen water, keep food good for a day. If you have an electric oven/cooktop—buy a little portable gas cooker from Bunnings/Ebay etc.

Will need some preparation for summer and for after Liddell closes.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby Bongalong » 05 Jul 2019, 16:12

"..atleast keep perishables cold!" Yeh, I'm not the only one hearing that nugget of truth. :bike :bike
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby Bongalong » 05 Jul 2019, 16:14

I find the little portable gas cookers don't cook a steak properly! :roll
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Jul 2019, 16:52

So buy a small gas BBQ (not charcoal, the only worthwhile type because power failures/load shedding etc etc will occur in summer/no outside fires day) and a humungous gas bottle.

I have a 4L bottle of frozen water in the freezer, as summer approaches I will add 2L milk bottles of water to the freezer: 4L should keep the fridge OK for a day or two, 1 or 3 milkbottles should keep an esky OK. Minimal solar panel+battery will allow me to run a small car fridge, put on the bottom of the mechanics pit in the shed will get food to nice low temp.

Will buy more solar panels/gel packs etc for next summer. 99yos get bumped off easy by excess heat. Getting eau de cologne—give her a rub with that will cool her down.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Jul 2019, 17:09

BUT power available will decline even as summers grow ever hotter!

YOU are responsible for yourself and family—think things through. Open fireplace or slow combustion heater for warmth in winter, some ability to create electricity enough to keep food cold over 24–48 hours. A gas cooker and gas bottle, tins fish, beans etc, green stuff in garden etc will see anyone through the hottest summer days/weeks tho power goes out. Will be an increasingly bad idea to go into summer with a freezer full of food! Can you preserve fruit, veges? Can you replace a button or darn a sock? Can you grow herbs, fruit, veges? Be a good idea to get into that—survive off your garden for a week? (yes, by the end of next decade things could be really shit here.) Got chooks? Lay these really neat protein pellets :rofl

Power going out is going to be a more regular thing. That is what I have been trying to show here. Look after yourself and family!

Petrol/diesel generators not the best thing—the noise will advertise you have one and it will get pinched! They are OK as supplement to solar panels and windmills. A windmill is $600-odd (plus cost to place and hook up electrically) and encourage all to invest. Some solar cells like for camping are good too—but not for a full size fridge/freezer!

The libs are fucking incompetent arsewipes, no idea. So for fucks sake look after yourself and family!

Yes, yes maybe I exaggerated things a bit. Climate is only going to get hotter and power supply more and more precarious tho. I have a 98yo to look after and that is a heavy responsibility. Fuck knows I would rather live in a tent or sleep in my car on my block in Tassie but responsibility keeps me here—and the bonds do chafe sometimes, fuck they do! Look after yourselves: project 5 years ahead—less power, more blackouts etc, how to cope.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby pinkeye » 05 Jul 2019, 23:50

HBS Guy wrote:Yes, I am not advocating a huge nuclear plant—have always said modular was the goal.

After stirring the hive with a stick :roll :bgrin I did say nuclear would take too long—that is the main objection to it. Libs just gave away $160Bn in tax cuts to the already rich—to put your figures in perspective.

Just trying to get some reality in the debate. Just saying “wind, bonza” is not going to replace 10GWatt of coal fired power.

Liddell will be the third coal fired plant to close with nothing done to replace it. When will people wake up? When the fifth or sixth closes, power costs are through the roof, brown outs, blackouts and load shedding are routine? That is the end result of neoliberalism—no money for education, social welfare, infrastructure etc. The billionaires will retire to the South Isl of NZ. We. . .?


Not my worry. Nor should it be yours. Sounds like you've got plenty of ideas.. always a good thing. Flexibility , the key.


So, how long do you think you will be home-caring for this elder.?
Do you have other options? 98... that is very old to be at home, even with devoted care.

You obviously come from a long-lived family. This is a huge issue that all survivors have to face.
Having seen what happened to my own mother, I'd never go to care..

..so options are few.
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby HBS Guy » 06 Jul 2019, 06:58

It is not a barrel of fun caring for those with dementia and incontinence—was a time she would leave her used incontinence pants lying around. Had to be VERY firm about her putting them in a plastic bag. Poor dear has incontinence issues and has to take diuretics to prevent fluid build up around her heart. We are going out today so I won’t give her the tablets today—and had that OKd by our GP. Normally I give them to her with her morning coffee so the diuretics are used up by bedtime and she puts on a fresh incontinence pants.

Every weekend I strip her bed and wash her sheets, make her bed up again, harder then it sounds because she will have a ton of stuff on top of her doona. But it is fine, gets done and her room always smells clean and fresh.

She hasn’t been able to find any of her three sets of glasses for a week now. I haven’t tried to find them—she can manage without them and who knows just where they are in the humungous pile of crap she won’t let go of. Bit of a hoarder but fortunately not of rubbish, food scraps which some old folk seem to end up hoarding—the smell! I throw so much stuff away each rubbish day but the pile never seems to decrease :sad

Be nice to get some help from sisters but it is not forthcoming. God it will be good to go to Tassie and put 1000Km between us!
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Re: Forcing Moves... lol

Postby pinkeye » 07 Jul 2019, 01:21

you can get assistance with caring for her. You don't have to do it all on you own, and there is always someone who can assist. Don't do it all alone .
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