Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby DonDeeHippy » 10 Feb 2019, 08:05

SethBullock wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Well Don, you're talking about two different but related things ...

Access to firearms and registration of firearms.

If, as you say, you have a real bad day, and you want to shoot someone, registration of firearms is not a factor.

In the U.S., convicted felons are not allowed to have firearms, and they go to prison if they're caught with them. So again, registration is not a factor.

None of my firearms are registered. It doesn't make them more dangerous, nor would it make them less dangerous if they were registered.

Wouldn't Registration of firearms help to reduce Access to firearms...…..
If a gun isn't registered isn't it easier to be used in illegal activities with no way to trace....
SO if thieves break into your place and steal your guns... its just added to the problem... if they where registered at least if they r used in a crime they can be traced.
Think back to your police days...… Would of your life been easier or harder if the guns involved in crimes where registered and u could find out its history..... :purple


I have records and pictures of my firearms in case they're ever stolen. I can provide serial numbers and so forth.

Registration is only done by law-abiding citizens, not criminals who get guns through illegal means.

So registration of firearms might make tracing firearms easier for law enforcement, but registration of firearms would not deter crime.

wouldn't it be harder for more guns to enter criminals hands if every gun sold had to be accounted for and registered... I get that the ones out there now could take years to be removed from general population... but even though it seams like closing the gate after the horse bolted..... Wouldn't that be a good way to decrease unaccounted gun numbers ?
Also the fact that if someone is put off by having to register a gun do they really need them ?
Or do u think the gun problem has gotten so bad now that it better just to throw up your hands and carry on as normal because it cant be fixed ?
U seem to focus on only law abiding citizen register guns..... well yes its only law abiding citizens that can reduce unaccounted for firearms...… Will u guys wait until there r 500 million unregistered guns or 600 million.... do nothing and it can only rise. :purple
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 10 Feb 2019, 08:55

DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Well Don, you're talking about two different but related things ...

Access to firearms and registration of firearms.

If, as you say, you have a real bad day, and you want to shoot someone, registration of firearms is not a factor.

In the U.S., convicted felons are not allowed to have firearms, and they go to prison if they're caught with them. So again, registration is not a factor.

None of my firearms are registered. It doesn't make them more dangerous, nor would it make them less dangerous if they were registered.

Wouldn't Registration of firearms help to reduce Access to firearms...…..
If a gun isn't registered isn't it easier to be used in illegal activities with no way to trace....
SO if thieves break into your place and steal your guns... its just added to the problem... if they where registered at least if they r used in a crime they can be traced.
Think back to your police days...… Would of your life been easier or harder if the guns involved in crimes where registered and u could find out its history..... :purple


I have records and pictures of my firearms in case they're ever stolen. I can provide serial numbers and so forth.

Registration is only done by law-abiding citizens, not criminals who get guns through illegal means.

So registration of firearms might make tracing firearms easier for law enforcement, but registration of firearms would not deter crime.

wouldn't it be harder for more guns to enter criminals hands if every gun sold had to be accounted for and registered... I get that the ones out there now could take years to be removed from general population... but even though it seams like closing the gate after the horse bolted..... Wouldn't that be a good way to decrease unaccounted gun numbers ?
Also the fact that if someone is put off by having to register a gun do they really need them ?
Or do u think the gun problem has gotten so bad now that it better just to throw up your hands and carry on as normal because it cant be fixed ?
U seem to focus on only law abiding citizen register guns..... well yes its only law abiding citizens that can reduce unaccounted for firearms...… Will u guys wait until there r 500 million unregistered guns or 600 million.... do nothing and it can only rise. :purple


Criminals get guns through theft and straw purchases. A straw purchase is when someone who is not disqualified from purchasing guns purchases a gun for someone who is disqualified. Straw purchases are against the law.

One thing I think we should do is require a background check for all transfers of firearms like we do in my state. This only takes a few minutes in most cases. The background check is already required when a licensed gun dealer sells a gun, but what I am suggesting would include private citizen-private citizen transfers as well. It's this way in my state, and it is not an onerous requirement. This would prevent a convicted felon from buying a gun as long as the seller was complying with the law. But it would not stop theft or straw purchases.

If a gun is stolen from its rightful owner by a criminal who is going to use it for a crime or who is going to sell it onto the black market, it makes no difference to that criminal if it's registered or unregistered. And if an otherwise lawful owner "goes rogue", again, whether the gun is registered or unregistered won't matter. And finally, if the police catch a convicted felon with a firearm, it doesn't matter if the firearm is registered or unregistered.

Gun owners are well aware that there is a political wing in this country that would like to ban firearms ownership. It is those people who make firearms owners leery of registration requirements.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby DonDeeHippy » 10 Feb 2019, 10:34

SethBullock wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Well Don, you're talking about two different but related things ...

Access to firearms and registration of firearms.

If, as you say, you have a real bad day, and you want to shoot someone, registration of firearms is not a factor.

In the U.S., convicted felons are not allowed to have firearms, and they go to prison if they're caught with them. So again, registration is not a factor.

None of my firearms are registered. It doesn't make them more dangerous, nor would it make them less dangerous if they were registered.

Wouldn't Registration of firearms help to reduce Access to firearms...…..
If a gun isn't registered isn't it easier to be used in illegal activities with no way to trace....
SO if thieves break into your place and steal your guns... its just added to the problem... if they where registered at least if they r used in a crime they can be traced.
Think back to your police days...… Would of your life been easier or harder if the guns involved in crimes where registered and u could find out its history..... :purple


I have records and pictures of my firearms in case they're ever stolen. I can provide serial numbers and so forth.

Registration is only done by law-abiding citizens, not criminals who get guns through illegal means.

So registration of firearms might make tracing firearms easier for law enforcement, but registration of firearms would not deter crime.

wouldn't it be harder for more guns to enter criminals hands if every gun sold had to be accounted for and registered... I get that the ones out there now could take years to be removed from general population... but even though it seams like closing the gate after the horse bolted..... Wouldn't that be a good way to decrease unaccounted gun numbers ?
Also the fact that if someone is put off by having to register a gun do they really need them ?
Or do u think the gun problem has gotten so bad now that it better just to throw up your hands and carry on as normal because it cant be fixed ?
U seem to focus on only law abiding citizen register guns..... well yes its only law abiding citizens that can reduce unaccounted for firearms...… Will u guys wait until there r 500 million unregistered guns or 600 million.... do nothing and it can only rise. :purple


Criminals get guns through theft and straw purchases. A straw purchase is when someone who is not disqualified from purchasing guns purchases a gun for someone who is disqualified. Straw purchases are against the law.

One thing I think we should do is require a background check for all transfers of firearms like we do in my state. This only takes a few minutes in most cases. The background check is already required when a licensed gun dealer sells a gun, but what I am suggesting would include private citizen-private citizen transfers as well. It's this way in my state, and it is not an onerous requirement. This would prevent a convicted felon from buying a gun as long as the seller was complying with the law. But it would not stop theft or straw purchases.

If a gun is stolen from its rightful owner by a criminal who is going to use it for a crime or who is going to sell it onto the black market, it makes no difference to that criminal if it's registered or unregistered. And if an otherwise lawful owner "goes rogue", again, whether the gun is registered or unregistered won't matter. And finally, if the police catch a convicted felon with a firearm, it doesn't matter if the firearm is registered or unregistered.

Gun owners are well aware that there is a political wing in this country that would like to ban firearms ownership. It is those people who make firearms owners leery of registration requirements.

So If guns are not registered someone with a good background check can just keep buying firearms with no record of how many they buy ?
If a gun isn't registered and its a private sale what the incentive to let anyone know its changed hands ?
No accountability for firearms just doesn't sound responsible..... Again its fear stopping ppl registering guns because one day they might not be able to have them... sounds like human nature but not a good reason for no accountability....
If no one wants to stand up and be accountable.. then things will never change and people will have to continue bringing guns to church for fear of being shot.
I believe in the right to bear arms... I just think if everyone was registered, specially newly bought guns then unaccountable firearms will decline. :purple
You can never stop criminals getting guns... throwing up your hands and saying we shouldn't register them because 1 day the government might change the laws is a good way to make it easier and easier for them . :purple
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 10 Feb 2019, 15:30

Don, I am having the hardest time answering you. Let's see if this will work going just a little at a time.
Last edited by SethBullock on 10 Feb 2019, 16:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 10 Feb 2019, 15:32

Your first question about buying as many firearms as they want. Yes, but if a person buys two or more from the same gun dealer in a 5 day period, the federal BATF is notified, and it may trigger an investigation as to whether the purchases were straw purchases.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 10 Feb 2019, 15:34

Second question: The incentive to obey the law is to obey the law. But, in my state, if you don't transfer a firearm with a background check first, it's a misdemeanor crime.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 10 Feb 2019, 15:36

Third sentence: Keep in mind that our federal government was set up in such a way that it obligates our government to protect our individual constitutional rights. And our government is supposed to be accountable to us, not just the other way around.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 10 Feb 2019, 15:43

Fourth sentence about bringing guns to church: Those of us who carry concealed firearms or who have one nearby in our homes are not paranoid weirdos. We think of it in the same way as buckling up a seat belt in a car or wearing a life preserver in a boat. Law-abiding citizens are not looking for trouble, and we know that we could go through a lifetime and never need a firearm. But at the same time, we simply refuse to be victims who do not have a readily available means to discourage or respond to an attack.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 10 Feb 2019, 15:47

Last few sentences: Registering a firearm will make no difference to the person who misuses a firearm.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby DonDeeHippy » 11 Feb 2019, 05:55

SethBullock wrote:Don, I am having the hardest time answering you. Let's see if this will work going just a little at a time.

sorry I get on a roll and just keep adding shit... I'll try not to do 20 questions :purple
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby DonDeeHippy » 11 Feb 2019, 05:57

SethBullock wrote:Your first question about buying as many firearms as they want. Yes, but if a person buys two or more from the same gun dealer in a 5 day period, the federal BATF is notified, and it may trigger an investigation as to whether the purchases were straw purchases.

SO a person could buy over 100 guns from 1 dealer a year and not raise questions.....

I take it that 1 person could do that in 10 different shops ? :purple
In Australia we even have a registry at chemists and doctors so a person cant keep buying codeine in bulk...…
Surely USA could do that with Firearms.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby DonDeeHippy » 11 Feb 2019, 05:59

SethBullock wrote:Second question: The incentive to obey the law is to obey the law. But, in my state, if you don't transfer a firearm with a background check first, it's a misdemeanor crime.

Just like we all obey road rules :)
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby DonDeeHippy » 11 Feb 2019, 06:09

SethBullock wrote:Fourth sentence about bringing guns to church: Those of us who carry concealed firearms or who have one nearby in our homes are not paranoid weirdos. We think of it in the same way as buckling up a seat belt in a car or wearing a life preserver in a boat. Law-abiding citizens are not looking for trouble, and we know that we could go through a lifetime and never need a firearm. But at the same time, we simply refuse to be victims who do not have a readily available means to discourage or respond to an attack.

That's really the problem... we don't think like that at all,, it doesn't even enter our head to bring a firearm with us doing daily events.
Texas has said he doesn't like going to places where he cant carry a concealed firearm... I get the baby blanket thing , I find it sad though that it's necessary.
It can be a culture thing as well, Australia has never allowed handguns (except as a sport and highly regulated) so we have never thought about them. :purple
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby DonDeeHippy » 11 Feb 2019, 06:11

SethBullock wrote:Last few sentences: Registering a firearm will make no difference to the person who misuses a firearm.

Registration will increase accountability...390 million firearms in USA there for who ever wants.....
So no accountability on gun ownership is fine ?
Imagine if we stopped registering cars because if a thief wants one he can steal it..... :purple
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 11 Feb 2019, 06:31

DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Don, I am having the hardest time answering you. Let's see if this will work going just a little at a time.

sorry I get on a roll and just keep adding shit... I'll try not to do 20 questions :purple


I don't mind the 20 questions. The problem was that the website didn't like it. I tried to answer them all in one post and I kept getting a "403 Forbidden" message.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 11 Feb 2019, 06:36

DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Your first question about buying as many firearms as they want. Yes, but if a person buys two or more from the same gun dealer in a 5 day period, the federal BATF is notified, and it may trigger an investigation as to whether the purchases were straw purchases.

SO a person could buy over 100 guns from 1 dealer a year and not raise questions.....

I take it that 1 person could do that in 10 different shops ? :purple
In Australia we even have a registry at chemists and doctors so a person cant keep buying codeine in bulk...…
Surely USA could do that with Firearms.


As far as I know, a person could go from one dealer to another and buy 1 handgun from each without triggering an investigation. I'm not sure if BATF would detect that or not.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 11 Feb 2019, 06:46

DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Second question: The incentive to obey the law is to obey the law. But, in my state, if you don't transfer a firearm with a background check first, it's a misdemeanor crime.

Just like we all obey road rules :)


Yeah, except traffic violations are a lot different from misdemeanor crimes.

Generally speaking, in an organized, civilized society where the majority of the people agree that they should live under the rule of law, compliance is voluntary, and the criminal justice system is there for the small minority who do not comply.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 11 Feb 2019, 06:51

DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Fourth sentence about bringing guns to church: Those of us who carry concealed firearms or who have one nearby in our homes are not paranoid weirdos. We think of it in the same way as buckling up a seat belt in a car or wearing a life preserver in a boat. Law-abiding citizens are not looking for trouble, and we know that we could go through a lifetime and never need a firearm. But at the same time, we simply refuse to be victims who do not have a readily available means to discourage or respond to an attack.

That's really the problem... we don't think like that at all,, it doesn't even enter our head to bring a firearm with us doing daily events.
Texas has said he doesn't like going to places where he cant carry a concealed firearm... I get the baby blanket thing , I find it sad though that it's necessary.
It can be a culture thing as well, Australia has never allowed handguns (except as a sport and highly regulated) so we have never thought about them. :purple


Yes, it is abundantly clear to me that there is a cultural difference between our two countries when it comes to firearms. The norms are different. It's interesting, though, that your rate of murder by stabbing and beating is higher than ours, while our rate of murder by firearm is higher than yours.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 11 Feb 2019, 07:01

DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Last few sentences: Registering a firearm will make no difference to the person who misuses a firearm.

Registration will increase accountability...390 million firearms in USA there for who ever wants.....
So no accountability on gun ownership is fine ?
Imagine if we stopped registering cars because if a thief wants one he can steal it..... :purple


We register cars so there is readily available proof of ownership. But with firearms, it is less important who the registered owner is, as it is to know what was done with it and by whom. Granted, universal gun registration would help law enforcement authorities in some ways in some cases. But to manage all that data would require a gigantic bureaucracy the size of the IRS. And, as I said before, the liberals in the U.S. would ban handgun ownership if they could, and a lot of rifles and shotguns too, and they are going further and further to the left by the day. And so gun owners are reluctant to approve of gun registration schemes. Currently, gun registration is state by state, and 8 states require it.
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby DonDeeHippy » 11 Feb 2019, 07:56

SethBullock wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Fourth sentence about bringing guns to church: Those of us who carry concealed firearms or who have one nearby in our homes are not paranoid weirdos. We think of it in the same way as buckling up a seat belt in a car or wearing a life preserver in a boat. Law-abiding citizens are not looking for trouble, and we know that we could go through a lifetime and never need a firearm. But at the same time, we simply refuse to be victims who do not have a readily available means to discourage or respond to an attack.

That's really the problem... we don't think like that at all,, it doesn't even enter our head to bring a firearm with us doing daily events.
Texas has said he doesn't like going to places where he cant carry a concealed firearm... I get the baby blanket thing , I find it sad though that it's necessary.
It can be a culture thing as well, Australia has never allowed handguns (except as a sport and highly regulated) so we have never thought about them. :purple


Yes, it is abundantly clear to me that there is a cultural difference between our two countries when it comes to firearms. The norms are different. It's interesting, though, that your rate of murder by stabbing and beating is higher than ours, while our rate of murder by firearm is higher than yours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate
well that would make sence as we don't have easy access to guns...
However your 5-6 times more likely to get murdered in USA than Australia... Take away the unregistered guns and I wonder if that would come down ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... death_rate
SO these number r murder rate per 100,000 ppl
USA 5.35 AUS 0.94
This is Firearm Murders per 100,000
USA 4.62 AUS 0.18
SO this would be Murders from other means per 100,000
USA 0.73 AUS 0.76

so yes your right in USA these is less chance 0.03 per 100,000 of being murdered by Stabbing , poison, beatings, runnover than in Australia
But there is 25 times the chance of being Killed by a Firearm.


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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby DonDeeHippy » 11 Feb 2019, 08:00

SethBullock wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Your first question about buying as many firearms as they want. Yes, but if a person buys two or more from the same gun dealer in a 5 day period, the federal BATF is notified, and it may trigger an investigation as to whether the purchases were straw purchases.

SO a person could buy over 100 guns from 1 dealer a year and not raise questions.....

I take it that 1 person could do that in 10 different shops ? :purple
In Australia we even have a registry at chemists and doctors so a person cant keep buying codeine in bulk...…
Surely USA could do that with Firearms.


As far as I know, a person could go from one dealer to another and buy 1 handgun from each without triggering an investigation. I'm not sure if BATF would detect that or not.

Do u see that as a problem, a person can buy 100's of guns a year with no regulation.
If that person had to register the guns he bought , it would stop this wouldn't it ? :purple
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby hatty » 11 Feb 2019, 09:41

thanks for that don........

stats seldom lie....... and that is some sobering reading

i'll drink my tea, and bang my boots against the wall each morning to make sure that there are no killer cock eating spiders in there...... yay straya :beer :roll
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby Texan » 11 Feb 2019, 09:45

Who are the governments guns reported to? Do cartels, gangs, and criminals have to report the guns they buy or steal? When all guns are registered, what stops the government from confiscating all guns in the name of “safety “? Wouldn’t gun control only affect the honest?
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby SethBullock » 11 Feb 2019, 09:50

DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Your first question about buying as many firearms as they want. Yes, but if a person buys two or more from the same gun dealer in a 5 day period, the federal BATF is notified, and it may trigger an investigation as to whether the purchases were straw purchases.

SO a person could buy over 100 guns from 1 dealer a year and not raise questions.....

I take it that 1 person could do that in 10 different shops ? :purple
In Australia we even have a registry at chemists and doctors so a person cant keep buying codeine in bulk...…
Surely USA could do that with Firearms.


As far as I know, a person could go from one dealer to another and buy 1 handgun from each without triggering an investigation. I'm not sure if BATF would detect that or not.

Do u see that as a problem, a person can buy 100's of guns a year with no regulation.
If that person had to register the guns he bought , it would stop this wouldn't it ? :purple


Don, I really don't care how many guns a person buys or owns for himself. But straw purchasers are a problem because they feed the black market. I can think of procedures that ought to be in place to make it harder to make straw purchases, alert authorities to possible straw purchases, and yet would not infringe upon the rights of the law-abiding, nor would they create a permanent record (registration).
"At least he's not Hillary" - Hatty

"There's only one solution: MORE guns!" - greggerypeccary

... "mr know it all" - Bongalong
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Re: Get over it: Americans are allowed to have guns!

Postby hatty » 11 Feb 2019, 09:50

Texan wrote:Who are the governments guns reported to? Do cartels, gangs, and criminals have to report the guns they buy or steal? When all guns are registered, what stops the government from confiscating all guns in the name of “safety “? Wouldn’t gun control only affect the honest?


texan i think you raised a very valid point

but i think don maybe right in that the horse has bolted in the US so now the only thing to do is make sure you are more armed than the baddies.

this is a tough one and i have no idea how it will play out.
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