Does GUN control REALLY works?

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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby johnsmith » 09 Nov 2018, 15:07

Texan wrote:I like UBC, but Democrats would make it a backdoor registration. Personally, I'd have no problem with UBC as long as anybody with an ID that proves they have a current background check does not have to fill any paperwork out.


sorry, but that's a bullshit reason to not have a UBS. Someone has to do the paperwork, you want the gun, you do it. It's the least you can do given that you're buying a weapon. Taking 5 mins to fill in a form isn't to big an ask if it helps reduce the number of innocent people being killed. You fill out paperwork to buy a car, you even fill out warranty paperwork to buy electronics and no complaints.

Texan wrote:Have you seen the Democrat party lately? They are coming out from closet socialism to full blown socialism


Sorry again, but that's more bullshit. If you think the democrats are socialist then you have no idea what socialism is. That's just typical of the scare mongering used by the republicans to capitalize on residual fear embedding into the American psyche from the cold war era.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Texan » 09 Nov 2018, 15:19

Cracky wrote:
Texan wrote:
johnsmith wrote:I just don't get why Americans are so adverse to tightening gun laws. I weep for you guys every time I see another one of these stories, and they're an almost weekly occurrence. Come on guys, isn't it time you woke up to the fact that not everyone should be allowed a gun?


What about the number of people killed all over the world by their government? Is that a good enough reason to let the people own guns?

I am struggling to avoid noting that your name is "Texan", where most of the shootings take place as I am led to believe. But allow me to answer your question. Yours is a simple question and mine is a simple answer: DEMOCRACY. You 're going down the wrong road, my American friend and the logic that you employ/insinuate in your question says it all.


Mass shootings draw headlines, but are a tiny fraction of all murders. The vast majority of murders are in liberal ran cities, typically. Without those cities, our murder statistics are very comparable to yours. Chicago has averages close to 2 murders/day. The city has driven gun stores out of the city and made legal gun ownership nearly impossible for decades. Only recently have they been forced to relax their agenda.

Most of the Texas mass shooting are in "gun free zones". Fort Hood 1 & 2. Wedgewood Baptist Church, various school shootings. I don't see how everybody in the Sutherland Springs Baptist Church was unarmed. Church goers have been allowed to arm themselves in church for 15 years. Every church I've attended for the past 15 years has been armed to the teeth. Nobody shows or discusses guns, but when you get to know them, the secret gets out. For full disclosure, I knew a victim in the Wedgewood Baptist Church shooting in Fort Worth in 1999. Cassie was 14 and her only crime was looking over the pew to see if the shooting was over.

Texas is in the middle as far as murder rates statistically. Texas is about the same as California and we have totally opposite approaches to gun rights. The 2 states make for great comparison because both border Mexico, have warm climates, big cities, lots of agriculture and technology, etc......
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Texan » 09 Nov 2018, 15:20

johnsmith wrote:
Texan wrote:I like UBC, but Democrats would make it a backdoor registration. Personally, I'd have no problem with UBC as long as anybody with an ID that proves they have a current background check does not have to fill any paperwork out.


sorry, but that's a bullshit reason to not have a UBS. Someone has to do the paperwork, you want the gun, you do it. It's the least you can do given that you're buying a weapon. Taking 5 mins to fill in a form isn't to big an ask if it helps reduce the number of innocent people being killed. You fill out paperwork to buy a car, you even fill out warranty paperwork to buy electronics and no complaints.

Texan wrote:Have you seen the Democrat party lately? They are coming out from closet socialism to full blown socialism


Sorry again, but that's more bullshit. If you think the democrats are socialist then you have no idea what socialism is. That's just typical of the scare mongering used by the republicans to capitalize on residual fear embedding into the American psyche from the cold war era.



Criminals don't do the background checks anyway. You just make it harder for the law abiding.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Aussie » 09 Nov 2018, 15:24

Democrats = gun control.

I would support any party who will introduce gun control in the US. There have been SIX mass shootings in the US just so far this month according to ABC News here.....(I have not checked elsewhere.)

Anything which reduces that is a good thing.

I accept that the US will never disarm its population....but it can do something to stop the impulsive proliferation of guns.

'A good man with a gun will stop the bad guy with the gun.'

Nah....an apparently good guy with a gun just killed 12 in California. Where was the 'good guy?'
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby greggerypeccary » 09 Nov 2018, 15:34

Aussie wrote:Democrats = gun control.

I would support any party who will introduce gun control in the US. There have been SIX mass shootings in the US just so far this month according to ABC News here.....(I have not checked elsewhere.)

Anything which reduces that is a good thing.

I accept that the US will never disarm its population....but it can do something to stop the impulsive proliferation of guns.

'A good man with a gun will stop the bad guy with the gun.'

Nah....an apparently good guy with a gun just killed 12 in California. Where was the 'good guy?'


Exactly - where was the good guy?

If all bar staff, bouncers, and customers were armed with guns things like this would never happen.

/sarcasm
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 09 Nov 2018, 16:10

Texan wrote:The US isn't restricted to a 2 party system ...

Roll your office chair back a bit, let your arms hang at your sides, gaze at the ceiling a few moments, take a couple of breaths ..... and say what you really know to be true.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 09 Nov 2018, 16:16

johnsmith wrote:
Texan wrote:
Have you seen the Democrat party lately? They are coming out from closet socialism to full blown socialism


... If you think the democrats are socialist then you have no idea what socialism is. That's just typical of the scare mongering used by the republicans to capitalize on residual fear embedding into the American psyche from the cold war era.

This response cannot be overstated as one of the most important messages for Americans to understand and replace the crap they have been brain-washed to believe.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Texan » 09 Nov 2018, 16:18

Aussie wrote:Democrats = gun control.

I would support any party who will introduce gun control in the US. There have been SIX mass shootings in the US just so far this month according to ABC News here.....(I have not checked elsewhere.)

Anything which reduces that is a good thing.

I accept that the US will never disarm its population....but it can do something to stop the impulsive proliferation of guns.

'A good man with a gun will stop the bad guy with the gun.'

Nah....an apparently good guy with a gun just killed 12 in California. Where was the 'good guy?'

The good guy with a gun was at McDonalds in Alabama with his kids. He stopped a mass shooting before it happened.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-mcdo ... n-shootout
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 09 Nov 2018, 16:26

Texan wrote:Mass shootings draw headlines, but are a tiny fraction of all murders. ......

This is the stuff of no-brainers and can be dismantled in a number of ways as pure bullshit manipulation of statistics. BUT .... screw all of that for the moment .... the bottom line of that messages is ....... "innocent people are dying in road accidents every day so we ought to have the right to shoot people to death anytime we chose ..... at least until we reach the level of murder by other means". Jesus f-ing Christ!
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 09 Nov 2018, 16:36

Aussie wrote:....an apparently good guy with a gun just killed 12 in California.

You're obviously not an American. In the US badges are awarded 'after the fact'. For example: an American who has a high-kill record of murdering unarmed and innocent Vietnamese is awarded the title of "hero" while a successful Muslim suicide bomber is awarded the title of "coward". Do you see how it works now?
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby SethBullock » 09 Nov 2018, 16:39

Aussie wrote:Democrats = gun control.

I would support any party who will introduce gun control in the US. There have been SIX mass shootings in the US just so far this month according to ABC News here.....(I have not checked elsewhere.)

Anything which reduces that is a good thing.

I accept that the US will never disarm its population....but it can do something to stop the impulsive proliferation of guns.

'A good man with a gun will stop the bad guy with the gun.'

Nah....an apparently good guy with a gun just killed 12 in California. Where was the 'good guy?'


Meanwhile, 3,287 Americans were killed by vehicle violence in the same month. How many could be saved if vehicle speeds were governed to hold them to 25 mph? Maybe about 95%? Maybe 98%? Low speeds increase vehicle maneuverability, add reaction time, and shorten braking distances. With seat belts and air bags, a 25 mph crash is survivable.

Would you support putting governors on all of your vehicles in Australia holding them to a maximum of 25 mph (or whatever that is is km's)? You lost 1225 Australians last year to vehicle violence. So tell me ... Which is more important? The convenience of being able to drive faster, or 1225 lives?

Why am I asking? I'm just curious. Are we willing to give up something to save lives? In the case of governed speed vehicles, held to a maximum of 25 mph, we give up time and convenience. But in Australia, I'd bet you would save most of those 1225 lives. Are 1225 lives worth it? Or does time and convenience trump 1225 lives? If you work 25 miles from home, it will take you an hour to get there instead of a half hour at 50 mph. Is that worth it?

Or do we accept a certain amount of loss of life in exchange for the convenience and time saving? And if so, why? Isn't even one life saved worth some inconvenience? We're talking about 1225 lives!

In America, if we could clean out every last firearm in the whole country, we could save people from murder by gun. But we would give up our ability to decisively defend our homes and our persons from criminal attack. Women would give up their ability to have an equalizer in an attack from a male. And people intent upon murder would use other means - stabbing, bludgeoning, choking, and beating. Granted, we could probably eliminate the mass murders committed by lone nutcases, but those mass murders constitute only a tiny fraction of all murders in the U.S. Without a firearm, I wouldn't even feel safe going for a walk in the woods. You oughta see what's in the woods around here! So that activity would be out.

cougar.JPG


That's a full grown adult elk in the foreground for perspective on the size of that beast.

But, but, but ... Wait a minute! You're a good driver! You're alert! You're sober! You follow the laws! You're a defensive driver!

Why should YOU have to be limited to 25 mph? YOU are not the problem! YOU have never hurt anyone while driving, and YOU are confident that you never will. Why should YOU be limited to 25 mph because of the carelessness and recklessness of others?

Simple. I'll tell you why. Because the only way to be sure you save those 1225 lives is to broadly and sweepingly apply to those governors to ALL vehicles, with no exceptions.

So those of you who want to ban firearms from Americans, I assume you're "all in" on the vehicle speed governor idea too. Right?

Seth
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 09 Nov 2018, 16:50

SethBullock wrote: Meanwhile, 3,287 Americans were killed by vehicle violence in the same month. ...... Would you support putting governors on all of your vehicles in Australia holding them to a maximum of 25 mph ...... ?


Isn't the appropriate term "apples to pears"? What do trigger-happy Yanks have to do with quick-fisted Australians?

Why not apply your logic to nuclear weapons vis-a-vis the US and Iran ..... or North Korea?
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby SethBullock » 09 Nov 2018, 17:11

Cracky wrote:
SethBullock wrote: Meanwhile, 3,287 Americans were killed by vehicle violence in the same month. ...... Would you support putting governors on all of your vehicles in Australia holding them to a maximum of 25 mph ...... ?


Isn't the appropriate term "apples to pears"? What do trigger-happy Yanks have to do with quick-fisted Australians?

Why not apply your logic to nuclear weapons vis-a-vis the US and Iran ..... or North Korea?


If you lose 1225 lives to gun violence or 1225 lives to vehicle violence, are those lives apples and pears? Are you or are you not willing to sacrifice something to save all those lives? 25 mph would do it mostly. You'd lose time and convenience.

Worth it?
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Aussie » 09 Nov 2018, 17:42

I don't need a gun. I need a car.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby SethBullock » 09 Nov 2018, 17:46

Aussie wrote:I don't need a gun. I need a car.


Sarcasm is not a rebuttal. It also doesn't answer the question.

Work tomorrow. Gotta :zzzz now. I'll check back in tomorrow.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Aussie » 09 Nov 2018, 17:52

SethBullock wrote:
Aussie wrote:I don't need a gun. I need a car.


Sarcasm is not a rebuttal. It also doesn't answer the question.

Work tomorrow. Gotta :zzzz now. I'll check back in tomorrow.


No sarcasm there Seth. I don't need a gun. I do need a car.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Auggie » 09 Nov 2018, 17:53

Aussie wrote:I don't need a gun. I need a car.


You could take an Uber.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Aussie » 09 Nov 2018, 17:58

Auggie wrote:
Aussie wrote:I don't need a gun. I need a car.


You could take an Uber.


Do they use cars or guns?
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Auggie » 09 Nov 2018, 18:02

Aussie wrote:
Auggie wrote:
Aussie wrote:I don't need a gun. I need a car.


You could take an Uber.


Do they use cars or guns?


Both, if you're America.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 09 Nov 2018, 18:19

SethBullock wrote:
Cracky wrote:
SethBullock wrote: Meanwhile, 3,287 Americans were killed by vehicle violence in the same month. ...... Would you support putting governors on all of your vehicles in Australia holding them to a maximum of 25 mph ...... ?


Isn't the appropriate term "apples to pears"? What do trigger-happy Yanks have to do with quick-fisted Australians?

Why not apply your logic to nuclear weapons vis-a-vis the US and Iran ..... or North Korea?


If you lose 1225 lives to gun violence or 1225 lives to vehicle violence, are those lives apples and pears? Are you or are you not willing to sacrifice something to save all those lives? 25 mph would do it mostly. You'd lose time and convenience.

Worth it?

Australia has already put such governing into law and it is apparently 'worth it' That's why they have so few shootings ..... and why your cheaply disguised 'apples and pears' analogy sucks.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Auggie » 09 Nov 2018, 18:29

Those who are against gun control still haven't been able to effectively explain why there is such a high incidence of violent crime in the United States.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby johnsmith » 09 Nov 2018, 19:36

Texan wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Texan wrote:I like UBC, but Democrats would make it a backdoor registration. Personally, I'd have no problem with UBC as long as anybody with an ID that proves they have a current background check does not have to fill any paperwork out.


sorry, but that's a bullshit reason to not have a UBS. Someone has to do the paperwork, you want the gun, you do it. It's the least you can do given that you're buying a weapon. Taking 5 mins to fill in a form isn't to big an ask if it helps reduce the number of innocent people being killed. You fill out paperwork to buy a car, you even fill out warranty paperwork to buy electronics and no complaints.

Texan wrote:Have you seen the Democrat party lately? They are coming out from closet socialism to full blown socialism


Sorry again, but that's more bullshit. If you think the democrats are socialist then you have no idea what socialism is. That's just typical of the scare mongering used by the republicans to capitalize on residual fear embedding into the American psyche from the cold war era.



Criminals don't do the background checks anyway. You just make it harder for the law abiding.


more feeble excuses. See this is what exacerbates me about the American position on guns. The suggestions I've made aren't outlandish. They're pretty reasonable. You, and most decent Americans, can still have your guns. And maybe, you just might save a life by keeping it out of some nutcases hands.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby johnsmith » 09 Nov 2018, 19:43

Texan wrote:
Aussie wrote:Democrats = gun control.

I would support any party who will introduce gun control in the US. There have been SIX mass shootings in the US just so far this month according to ABC News here.....(I have not checked elsewhere.)

Anything which reduces that is a good thing.

I accept that the US will never disarm its population....but it can do something to stop the impulsive proliferation of guns.

'A good man with a gun will stop the bad guy with the gun.'

Nah....an apparently good guy with a gun just killed 12 in California. Where was the 'good guy?'

The good guy with a gun was at McDonalds in Alabama with his kids. He stopped a mass shooting before it happened.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-mcdo ... n-shootout



and maybe, just maybe, the good guy woukldn't have needed to shoot anyone if criminals weren't able to buy guns willy nilly on the free market
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby johnsmith » 09 Nov 2018, 19:49

SethBullock wrote:Meanwhile, 3,287 Americans were killed by vehicle violence in the same month. How many could be saved if vehicle speeds were governed to hold them to 25 mph? Maybe about 95%? Maybe 98%? Low speeds increase vehicle maneuverability, add reaction time, and shorten braking distances. With seat belts and air bags, a 25 mph crash is survivable.

Would you support putting governors on all of your vehicles in Australia holding them to a maximum of 25 mph (or whatever that is is km's)? You lost 1225 Australians last year to vehicle violence. So tell me ... Which is more important? The convenience of being able to drive faster, or 1225 lives?


but they already control speeds on public roads so as to reduce the road toll. If we applied the same attitude to cars as Americans apply to their guns, there would be zero speed limits anywhere. What do you think that would do to your vehicular death toll Seth?

SethBullock wrote: Without a firearm, I wouldn't even feel safe going for a walk in the woods.

no one has suggested you ban all guns.

I would have thought that surely as a police officer you would be the first to understand that some people simply should not be allowed to own guns.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 09 Nov 2018, 20:29

johnsmith wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Meanwhile, 3,287 Americans were killed by vehicle violence in the same month. How many could be saved if vehicle speeds were governed to hold them to 25 mph? Maybe about 95%? Maybe 98%? Low speeds increase vehicle maneuverability, add reaction time, and shorten braking distances. With seat belts and air bags, a 25 mph crash is survivable.

Would you support putting governors on all of your vehicles in Australia holding them to a maximum of 25 mph (or whatever that is is km's)? You lost 1225 Australians last year to vehicle violence. So tell me ... Which is more important? The convenience of being able to drive faster, or 1225 lives?


but they already control speeds on public roads so as to reduce the road toll. If we applied the same attitude to cars as Americans apply to their guns, there would be zero speed limits anywhere. What do you think that would do to your vehicular death toll Seth?

I think you took his analogy cum smoke screen too literally.
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