Does GUN control REALLY works?

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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Auggie » 09 Nov 2018, 20:31

Verily, verily, oh Yankees, pray do tell us what doth cause such highness of violent crime in those United States?
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby johnsmith » 09 Nov 2018, 20:33

Cracky wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Meanwhile, 3,287 Americans were killed by vehicle violence in the same month. How many could be saved if vehicle speeds were governed to hold them to 25 mph? Maybe about 95%? Maybe 98%? Low speeds increase vehicle maneuverability, add reaction time, and shorten braking distances. With seat belts and air bags, a 25 mph crash is survivable.

Would you support putting governors on all of your vehicles in Australia holding them to a maximum of 25 mph (or whatever that is is km's)? You lost 1225 Australians last year to vehicle violence. So tell me ... Which is more important? The convenience of being able to drive faster, or 1225 lives?


but they already control speeds on public roads so as to reduce the road toll. If we applied the same attitude to cars as Americans apply to their guns, there would be zero speed limits anywhere. What do you think that would do to your vehicular death toll Seth?

I think you took his analogy cum smoke screen too literally.


I'm a literal kinda guy .......... when it suits me :c
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby HBS Guy » 09 Nov 2018, 22:37

13 dead in bar shooting in California:

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2018/11/08/california-bar-mass-shooting/

Something needs to be done.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 09 Nov 2018, 23:23

Another shooting at a U.S. High School this morning. But this report comes from Russia Today so it's probably a lie ...... right?
https://www.rt.com/usa/443530-north-car ... ifications
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 09 Nov 2018, 23:36

HBS Guy wrote:13 dead in bar shooting in California:

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2018/11/08/california-bar-mass-shooting/

Something needs to be done.

"Something needs to be done"? We just never learn, do we. The Americans have been telling us all along that the problem is that there are 'not enough guns' but we never listen to them. You see! One shooting in California and another one this morning in North Carolina .... what more proof do we need for fuck's sake?

Give America more guns so they can put an end to the slaughter!!!

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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Texan » 10 Nov 2018, 04:54

Cracky wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:13 dead in bar shooting in California:

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2018/11/08/california-bar-mass-shooting/

Something needs to be done.

"Something needs to be done"? We just never learn, do we. The Americans have been telling us all along that the problem is that there are 'not enough guns' but we never listen to them. You see! One shooting in California and another one this morning in North Carolina .... what more proof do we need for fuck's sake?

Give America more guns so they can put an end to the slaughter!!!

Image
It'll be a free-for-all. The shores will be awash with corpses and the rivers will run red with blood, stepping over bodies in the High Street.


Those magazines won’t work with that rifle. It’s a black club.

Edit: Sorry. I missed the magazines in the stars. The problem is they are harassing legal gun owners while the criminals don’t obey the law anyway. They attack schools, bars, concerts because they know everybody has been disarmed. Designated drivers should be allowed to carry in bars if they are legal to carry elsewhere.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 10 Nov 2018, 05:36

Texan wrote:
Cracky wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:13 dead in bar shooting in California:

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2018/11/08/california-bar-mass-shooting/

Something needs to be done.

"Something needs to be done"? We just never learn, do we. The Americans have been telling us all along that the problem is that there are 'not enough guns' but we never listen to them. You see! One shooting in California and another one this morning in North Carolina .... what more proof do we need for fuck's sake?

Give America more guns so they can put an end to the slaughter!!!

Image
It'll be a free-for-all. The shores will be awash with corpses and the rivers will run red with blood, stepping over bodies in the High Street.


Those magazines won’t work with that rifle. It’s a black club.

Edit: Sorry. I missed the magazines in the stars. The problem is they are harassing legal gun owners while the criminals don’t obey the law anyway. They attack schools, bars, concerts because they know everybody has been disarmed. Designated drivers should be allowed to carry in bars if they are legal to carry elsewhere.

Well, the two highlighted qoutes from you support one another so I understand your point of view. It is very obvious then that the problem with gun control isn't really with any law that might be made but in the enforcement of the law. You say, "they are harassing legal gun owners" ... who are "they" - the ones who are doing the harassing?
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby HBS Guy » 10 Nov 2018, 06:41

They attack places like the schools they went to etc because of some real or imagined grudge.

I have a few internet yank friends (a homebrew chat board) and the answer to a shooting is always “more guns.” I don’t think anything can be done about it, just too late, too many guns around in the US. I know some bought guns through black market and BURIED them when it was thought Obama might do something about guns.

Civilians do not need assault rifles! Civilians do not need automatic weapons.

Some places allow concealed carry in bars—loony toons stuff! Drunks with guns!
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Texan » 10 Nov 2018, 07:35

Cracky wrote:
Texan wrote:
Cracky wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:13 dead in bar shooting in California:

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2018/11/08/california-bar-mass-shooting/

Something needs to be done.

"Something needs to be done"? We just never learn, do we. The Americans have been telling us all along that the problem is that there are 'not enough guns' but we never listen to them. You see! One shooting in California and another one this morning in North Carolina .... what more proof do we need for fuck's sake?

Give America more guns so they can put an end to the slaughter!!!

Image
It'll be a free-for-all. The shores will be awash with corpses and the rivers will run red with blood, stepping over bodies in the High Street.


Those magazines won’t work with that rifle. It’s a black club.

Edit: Sorry. I missed the magazines in the stars. The problem is they are harassing legal gun owners while the criminals don’t obey the law anyway. They attack schools, bars, concerts because they know everybody has been disarmed. Designated drivers should be allowed to carry in bars if they are legal to carry elsewhere.

Well, the two highlighted qoutes from you support one another so I understand your point of view. It is very obvious then that the problem with gun control isn't really with any law that might be made but in the enforcement of the law. You say, "they are harassing legal gun owners" ... who are "they" - the ones who are doing the harassing?



The they harassing legal gun owners would be the government. Law abiding people have to jump through hoops and pay for licenses and back ground checks, while criminals ignore it all and have all the guns they want.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Texan » 10 Nov 2018, 07:54

HBS Guy wrote:They attack places like the schools they went to etc because of some real or imagined grudge.

I have a few internet yank friends (a homebrew chat board) and the answer to a shooting is always “more guns.” I don’t think anything can be done about it, just too late, too many guns around in the US. I know some bought guns through black market and BURIED them when it was thought Obama might do something about guns.

Civilians do not need assault rifles! Civilians do not need automatic weapons.

Some places allow concealed carry in bars—loony toons stuff! Drunks with guns!


Many states allow unregulated private sales of firearms. It's not illegal in most states. I'm assuming by "black market" you meant by illegal means.

There are 1.5 million feral hogs in Texas. They breed like rabbits and can reach 500 lbs (200 kg?). They do huge damage to property and will kill you and eat you if they feel threatened. They are not indigenous to Texas either. When shot at, they can charge you as a herd. Things get chaotic when the shooting starts. What rifle would you suggest using to control their population? I'm considering building an AR15 pistol as a backup. Bacon is a good thing.

Automatic weapons are heavily regulated, very expensive, and illegal to manufacture. You won't find one under $25k and you'll have to wait close to a year to get your Class III license approved for each Class III item you have. (suppressors, short barrel rifles, short barrel shotguns, etc......) They don't hand them out at the convenience store.

I agree that drunks with guns is a very bad idea and should be dealt with harshly when encountered by police. Rights have responsibilities.

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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby HBS Guy » 10 Nov 2018, 08:10

Yes, we have feral pigs, goats and camels here and am happy to eat meat from any of those pests and ecology destroyers, especially camels. Nothing I have said or law here prevents people owning hunting rifles. Pigs kinda run funny—but fucking fast! They are also smart animals.

Good that automatic weapons are expensive, enough harm is being done without them.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Texan » 10 Nov 2018, 08:55

HBS Guy wrote:Yes, we have feral pigs, goats and camels here and am happy to eat meat from any of those pests and ecology destroyers, especially camels. Nothing I have said or law here prevents people owning hunting rifles. Pigs kinda run funny—but fucking fast! They are also smart animals.

Good that automatic weapons are expensive, enough harm is being done without them.


My niece ran into a 300 lb hog at night. The hog made it 5 meters and died. The truck was a total loss.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Dax » 10 Nov 2018, 10:08

The thing most here don't understand is that the majority of yanks, are brain dead to the reality of the world and pure god nutters. When you have close to 80% who have no clue about anywhere or anything outside the USA, add they believe in the non existent god of war, you have the formula for what the USA is. Deranged ideologues, stupid and completely insane.

Having been to the USA almost yearly for a couple of decades, stopped going there a couple of years ago as it has become extremely dangerous. Yanks get a great thrill out of shooting at things, or blowing them up. So it's easy to see why they have so many gun deaths and mass slaughter. Getting a gun in the USA is extremely easy, especially if you purchase at a gun show. you don't need any ID, or checkups. You can buy a working tank, field piece, sr15, 50cal machine guns and just about anything you wish at a gun show and there is at least one of those every week round the country.

Our gun laws work here because the majority are not addicted to Disney land idols, or non existent war gods. Just about every farmer I know in Aus, has at least one rifle used for feral control and putting sick animals out of their misery. I personally kill shoot about 10 feral cats a year and lots of rabbits, plus go sports shooting.

The big difference between Aus and the USA, is yanks can carry weapons anywhere without any problems. In Aus if we want to go to shooting competition interstate, we have to provide evidence of the shoot, have very secure carrying capacity and surrender our arms when on public transport, ie flying, bus or ship. A yank can walk down the street with a fully loaded machine gun and be legal.

You'll never convince god nutters they are wrong, they would much rather wipe themselves out to be right and they are well on the way to doing that.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby johnsmith » 10 Nov 2018, 10:11

Texan wrote:Edit: Sorry. I missed the magazines in the stars. The problem is they are harassing legal gun owners while the criminals don’t obey the law anyway. They attack schools, bars, concerts because they know everybody has been disarmed. Designated drivers should be allowed to carry in bars if they are legal to carry elsewhere.


that's why banning guns from small isolated locals doesn't work. How can it when merely meters away there are hundreds of weapons available? The bans have to be statewide, or national, so that it is more difficult for everyone to access gun, not just the person going to church or school etc.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Texan » 10 Nov 2018, 10:26

johnsmith wrote:
Texan wrote:Edit: Sorry. I missed the magazines in the stars. The problem is they are harassing legal gun owners while the criminals don’t obey the law anyway. They attack schools, bars, concerts because they know everybody has been disarmed. Designated drivers should be allowed to carry in bars if they are legal to carry elsewhere.


that's why banning guns from small isolated locals doesn't work. How can it when merely meters away there are hundreds of weapons available? The bans have to be statewide, or national, so that it is more difficult for everyone to access gun, not just the person going to church or school etc.


The government and criminals still have guns. Just look at Mexico. Their government and the cartels have guns smuggled from all over the world. The Mexican people are caught between it all. They are pointed North by the government for handouts and the cartels take advantage of them by smuggling them into America along with the drugs. Often, Mexican authorities find mass graves with dozens of victims of Mexican cartel violence. Are there any countries where the people are allowed to be armed that are in this predicament?

The 2A keeps foreign armies from even thinking about invading us, even if our military wasn't so big. It also keeps criminals looking for softer targets. Some people die, but many more are protected by guns. Most of these instances don't make the news or police reports because a good guy pulling a gun and not having to use it doesn't get noticed.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Auggie » 10 Nov 2018, 11:19

Texan wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Texan wrote:Edit: Sorry. I missed the magazines in the stars. The problem is they are harassing legal gun owners while the criminals don’t obey the law anyway. They attack schools, bars, concerts because they know everybody has been disarmed. Designated drivers should be allowed to carry in bars if they are legal to carry elsewhere.


that's why banning guns from small isolated locals doesn't work. How can it when merely meters away there are hundreds of weapons available? The bans have to be statewide, or national, so that it is more difficult for everyone to access gun, not just the person going to church or school etc.


The government and criminals still have guns. Just look at Mexico. Their government and the cartels have guns smuggled from all over the world. The Mexican people are caught between it all. They are pointed North by the government for handouts and the cartels take advantage of them by smuggling them into America along with the drugs. Often, Mexican authorities find mass graves with dozens of victims of Mexican cartel violence. Are there any countries where the people are allowed to be armed that are in this predicament?

The 2A keeps foreign armies from even thinking about invading us, even if our military wasn't so big. It also keeps criminals looking for softer targets. Some people die, but many more are protected by guns. Most of these instances don't make the news or police reports because a good guy pulling a gun and not having to use it doesn't get noticed.


Attributing high crime in Mexico to a lack of firearm ownership completely disregards other more important factors, of which you seem ignorant.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby johnsmith » 10 Nov 2018, 13:16

Texan wrote:The government and criminals still have guns.


The govt isn't a problem. You vote them out the next election if you don't like them. The criminals however are buying their guns on the free market. I'm not sure why there is so much resistance to try and limit that. Sure, you'll probably never remove 100% of illegal weapons. But if you removed 80% of them, you can see how some lives would be saved?

As for mexico, that's a whole different issue. Those drug cartels turn over more money than many western economies. The gun laws have little impact to the grand scheme of things. They need to break the cartels to bring down crime rates. Until they do, it is irrelevant what their gun laws are.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby SethBullock » 10 Nov 2018, 14:54

Aussie wrote:
SethBullock wrote:
Aussie wrote:I don't need a gun. I need a car.


Sarcasm is not a rebuttal. It also doesn't answer the question.

Work tomorrow. Gotta :zzzz now. I'll check back in tomorrow.


No sarcasm there Seth. I don't need a gun. I do need a car.


You don't need a gun until you do need it, Aussie. You may never need a gun in your lifetime. But if you ever need a gun, you're going to need it very badly.

But do you need to drive your car faster than 25 mph at the cost of 1225 lives in your country?

Shouldn't there be a broad, all-encompassing ban on traveling faster than 25 mph to save those lives?

The truth is, if you're honest, is that you're willing to accept the death that goes along with driving at higher speeds, rather than to enforce a rule upon EVERYBODY that saves those lives.

In the U.S., we may possess firearms to protect our homes and families, ourselves, and others. In this country, we value that ability. Within the constraints of the law, there is a sovereignty over our bodies and personal safety that we do not wish to give up and which we value. I agree that some people should not possess guns. I recognize that there is a down side to the presence of guns in our country. But for peaceful, law-abiding people - millions upon millions of us - I will not support taking away that right. I am willing to accept the reality of the down side.

So far, not one of you have given a straight up or down opinion about governing vehicle speeds to 25 mph to save lives. And so, I have no choice but to deduce that you, too, are willing to accept some death (1225 people) in your country, for the convenience and time-saving you get out of being able to drive faster than that.

Vehicles and guns are different, but death is death, regardless of how it happens. And, apparently, those preventable 1225 deaths are the trade-off you choose. In the U.S. we also make a trade-off. At least we admit it.

So, while people sanctimoniously point at the "cowboy Americans", understand that we are really not that different. These choices we make, fundamentally, are the same.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby SethBullock » 10 Nov 2018, 14:57

Dax wrote:The thing most here don't understand is that the majority of yanks, are brain dead to the reality of the world and pure god nutters. When you have close to 80% who have no clue about anywhere or anything outside the USA, add they believe in the non existent god of war, you have the formula for what the USA is. Deranged ideologues, stupid and completely insane.

Having been to the USA almost yearly for a couple of decades, stopped going there a couple of years ago as it has become extremely dangerous. Yanks get a great thrill out of shooting at things, or blowing them up. So it's easy to see why they have so many gun deaths and mass slaughter. Getting a gun in the USA is extremely easy, especially if you purchase at a gun show. you don't need any ID, or checkups. You can buy a working tank, field piece, sr15, 50cal machine guns and just about anything you wish at a gun show and there is at least one of those every week round the country.

Our gun laws work here because the majority are not addicted to Disney land idols, or non existent war gods. Just about every farmer I know in Aus, has at least one rifle used for feral control and putting sick animals out of their misery. I personally kill shoot about 10 feral cats a year and lots of rabbits, plus go sports shooting.

The big difference between Aus and the USA, is yanks can carry weapons anywhere without any problems. In Aus if we want to go to shooting competition interstate, we have to provide evidence of the shoot, have very secure carrying capacity and surrender our arms when on public transport, ie flying, bus or ship. A yank can walk down the street with a fully loaded machine gun and be legal.

You'll never convince god nutters they are wrong, they would much rather wipe themselves out to be right and they are well on the way to doing that.


Killing kitty cats and bunnies ...

Don't talk about Americans then.

You Aussies also kill wild horses, ffs.

Barbarians ...
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Texan » 10 Nov 2018, 15:07

johnsmith wrote:
Texan wrote:The government and criminals still have guns.


The govt isn't a problem. You vote them out the next election if you don't like them. The criminals however are buying their guns on the free market. I'm not sure why there is so much resistance to try and limit that. Sure, you'll probably never remove 100% of illegal weapons. But if you removed 80% of them, you can see how some lives would be saved?

As for mexico, that's a whole different issue. Those drug cartels turn over more money than many western economies. The gun laws have little impact to the grand scheme of things. They need to break the cartels to bring down crime rates. Until they do, it is irrelevant what their gun laws are.

When the criminals are the only people to have guns besides the police, it makes all the difference. With a disarmed public, Americans are no better off than the Mexicans.

El Paso TX - 2017 murder rate of 1.7/100k 23 murders
Juarez Mexico - 2017 murder rate of 56.16/100k 819 murders

These 2 cities are separated only by a waist high river and a fence. Tenss of thousands of people go back and forth daily between the 2 cities. Why is Juarez a shithole and El Paso is not? Both places speak the same language (Spanish), listen to the same radio stations, and watch the same TV stations. The only difference I can see is that El Paso's police aren't corrupt and the cartels can't run around as easily because the people of Texas are allowed to fight back. It seems like every time Juarez gets a mayor who promises to crack down on cartel crime, they end up being slaughtered along with their families. I live in a very safe place and I intend to keep it safe.

I'm sure you could make the same comparisons with Laredo TX and Nuevo Laredo Mexico, Brownsville TX and Matamoros Mexico, etc.....

Why is Mexico a 3rd world country? Why are they not as safe as Texas? They are just a few feet away.
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Aussie » 10 Nov 2018, 15:19

Killing kitty cats and bunnies ...

Don't talk about Americans then.

You Aussies also kill wild horses, ffs.

Barbarians ...


Indeed....we also knock Skippy off as well!
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 10 Nov 2018, 17:09

Texan wrote:
Cracky wrote:Well, the two highlighted qoutes from you support one another so I understand your point of view. It is very obvious then that the problem with gun control isn't really with any law that might be made but in the enforcement of the law. You say, "they are harassing legal gun owners" ... who are "they" - the ones who are doing the harassing?



The they harassing legal gun owners would be the government. Law abiding people have to jump through hoops and pay for licenses and back ground checks, while criminals ignore it all and have all the guns they want.

The problem is clear then, isn't it. With the country being awash with firearms shootings will never stop. You could try educating your population and establishing jobs for everyone but apparently, that would be a crime against American, Capitalist philosophy. So you have to start doing away with the weapons I guess. It seems there is no law to facilitate that task with the common excuse that such a law would be ungovernable. WHAT!? The U.S. does have a police force, doesn't it? It's not my job to tell the U.S. how to guide their police initiatives but, Christ! What happened to "Go get 'im!"?

Seriously, very seriously .... saying that gun control would be impossible to initiate is the biggest load of codswallop of all time. The U.S. has managed to ascertain (with absolute certainty) that non-existent Weapons of Mass Destruction are strewn all of the f-ing Iraki desert and the NSA can tell you what time I took a piss yesterday but they can't trace actual, real, tangible weapons in their own backyard? Go ahead ..... pull the other leg. :jump
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 10 Nov 2018, 17:24

Dax wrote:The thing most here don't understand is that the majority of yanks, are brain dead to the reality of the world and pure god nutters. When you have close to 80% who have no clue about anywhere or anything outside the USA, add they believe in the non existent god of war, you have the formula for what the USA is. Deranged ideologues, stupid and completely insane.

Having been to the USA almost yearly for a couple of decades, stopped going there a couple of years ago as it has become extremely dangerous. Yanks get a great thrill out of shooting at things, or blowing them up. So it's easy to see why they have so many gun deaths and mass slaughter. Getting a gun in the USA is extremely easy, especially if you purchase at a gun show. you don't need any ID, or checkups. You can buy a working tank, field piece, sr15, 50cal machine guns and just about anything you wish at a gun show and there is at least one of those every week round the country.

Our gun laws work here because the majority are not addicted to Disney land idols, or non existent war gods. Just about every farmer I know in Aus, has at least one rifle used for feral control and putting sick animals out of their misery. I personally kill shoot about 10 feral cats a year and lots of rabbits, plus go sports shooting.

The big difference between Aus and the USA, is yanks can carry weapons anywhere without any problems. In Aus if we want to go to shooting competition interstate, we have to provide evidence of the shoot, have very secure carrying capacity and surrender our arms when on public transport, ie flying, bus or ship. A yank can walk down the street with a fully loaded machine gun and be legal.

You'll never convince god nutters they are wrong, they would much rather wipe themselves out to be right and they are well on the way to doing that.

You paint a frightening picture and I wish that I could disagree with you.

I have been shot at and had guns pointed at me a few times in my life: many times as a soldier at war, several times as a civilian in Khmer Rough territory, near Victoria Falls during the Rhodesian war, in Beirut during their mad civil war, once by nervous soldiers in Tanzania ................... and TWICE by fucking nutters in the U.S. who just thought it was fun!
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Cracky » 10 Nov 2018, 17:33

SethBullock wrote:So far, not one of you have given a straight up or down opinion about governing vehicle speeds to 25 mph to save lives. And so, I have no choice but to deduce that you, too, are willing to accept some death (1225 people) in your country, for the convenience and time-saving you get out of being able to drive faster than that.

:grn Absolute and utter bullshit straight from "Dick & Jane's Easy Reader for Slow Learners". Just because your people don't know how to obey traffic rules or keep their willies out of sight doesn't mean the rest of world is equally daft. Your argument is a total no-brainer.
"A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." Bruce Lee
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Re: Does GUN control REALLY works?

Postby Aussie » 10 Nov 2018, 17:57

Cracky wrote:
Dax wrote:The thing most here don't understand is that the majority of yanks, are brain dead to the reality of the world and pure god nutters. When you have close to 80% who have no clue about anywhere or anything outside the USA, add they believe in the non existent god of war, you have the formula for what the USA is. Deranged ideologues, stupid and completely insane.

Having been to the USA almost yearly for a couple of decades, stopped going there a couple of years ago as it has become extremely dangerous. Yanks get a great thrill out of shooting at things, or blowing them up. So it's easy to see why they have so many gun deaths and mass slaughter. Getting a gun in the USA is extremely easy, especially if you purchase at a gun show. you don't need any ID, or checkups. You can buy a working tank, field piece, sr15, 50cal machine guns and just about anything you wish at a gun show and there is at least one of those every week round the country.

Our gun laws work here because the majority are not addicted to Disney land idols, or non existent war gods. Just about every farmer I know in Aus, has at least one rifle used for feral control and putting sick animals out of their misery. I personally kill shoot about 10 feral cats a year and lots of rabbits, plus go sports shooting.

The big difference between Aus and the USA, is yanks can carry weapons anywhere without any problems. In Aus if we want to go to shooting competition interstate, we have to provide evidence of the shoot, have very secure carrying capacity and surrender our arms when on public transport, ie flying, bus or ship. A yank can walk down the street with a fully loaded machine gun and be legal.

You'll never convince god nutters they are wrong, they would much rather wipe themselves out to be right and they are well on the way to doing that.

You paint a frightening picture and I wish that I could disagree with you.

I have been shot at and had guns pointed at me a few times in my life: many times as a soldier at war, several times as a civilian in Khmer Rough territory, near Victoria Falls during the Rhodesian war, in Beirut during their mad civil war, once by nervous soldiers in Tanzania ................... and TWICE by fucking nutters in the U.S. who just thought it was fun!


:b

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