Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee children

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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 03 Nov 2018, 19:38

johnsmith wrote:
chris155au wrote:Maybe you can just state exactly what part of the UN Convention you think Australia has violated.


the refugees on Nauru have been processed and found to be genuine refugees ............ and still the govt says they will never settle in Australia. A clear breach of the agreement they signed


And where would you settle them?
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 03 Nov 2018, 19:41

Also John, I refer you to this post which you seem to have missed: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5122&start=125#p149931
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby johnsmith » 03 Nov 2018, 21:00

chris155au wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
chris155au wrote:Maybe you can just state exactly what part of the UN Convention you think Australia has violated.


the refugees on Nauru have been processed and found to be genuine refugees ............ and still the govt says they will never settle in Australia. A clear breach of the agreement they signed


And where would you settle them?


You wouldn't like my answer as to where I'd put them. I'm all for letting them in. However for the purposes of this argument, NZ has offered to take them all in. Australia refuses. It would much rather punish these people for daring to seek asylum


chris155au wrote:Also John, I refer you to this post which you seem to have missed: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5122&start=125#p149931


cheers, I did miss it. I'll reply in the next post
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby johnsmith » 03 Nov 2018, 21:17

And asylum seekers DO get on the boats in Australian waters?


no, they get on the boats in Indonesia mostly, and then make their way here.

Therefore, we have a duty of care!

I disagree. We aren't responsible for decisions people make outside of our jurisdiction. All we can do is offer support if needed when they are in our jurisdiction


It isn't. However, on one boat, everyone on the boat is at risk. There is the potential for everyone on board to die at sea. Back home, on land, even in a war situation, at least there is medical support. Far less guarantee of death than being at sea in the worst boats in the world!


That's a bullshit and convenient excuse. Whole cities are wiped out in these bombing campaigns. Instead of a 1000 people dying on a boat over 5 tyrs, you have 15 000 civilians in one year directly attributable to air strikes in Syria. The UN has civilian death toll for Syria estimates ranging 364,792 and 522,000 in Syria alone. But people don't just die from the bombs, they die from starvation, a lack of clean water, infection, lack of medical aid, and a whole myriad of other issues that affect a city under seige.

Another 460 000 deaths in Iraq,

staying in the cities is a much safer option ehhh?

How do you think would you and your family go in the city in this image?

Image


https://world.wng.org/2016/02/cities_under_siege

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/jan/08/civilian-deaths-from-airstrikes-almost-double-year

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-ab&ei=1nndW5meLs2vyAPI0K-wCA&q=civilian+deaths+in+syria&oq=civilain+deaths+in++syria&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i13k1j0i13i30k1l5.6101.9640.0.11579.19.18.0.0.0.0.241.2629.0j9j5.14.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..7.12.2171...0i7i30k1j0i7i10i30k1j0i13i5i10i30k1j0i8i13i30k1j0i13i5i30k1.0.B4KEkRiX4G4
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby pinkeye » 03 Nov 2018, 23:20

chris155au wrote:No I didn't, I just wasn't aware that they came by boat. I assumed that they all went to Europe, like most of them did.



See, u show us what a dickwad you are. Like I said..... you are just a shit stirrer. You give yourself away, fool, by your ignorance. Ignorance about a HUGE ISSUE here. You know very little, so stop big-noting yourself, and stop the bullshit.
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 05 Nov 2018, 18:37

johnsmith wrote:
you don't risk jail for talking to the media on what you've witnessed during a police operation


Well that doesn't prove anything. I agree though that it is pretty insane and a grossly anti-free speech which I hate.
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 05 Nov 2018, 18:43

johnsmith wrote:
You wouldn't like my answer as to where I'd put them. I'm all for letting them in. However for the purposes of this argument, NZ has offered to take them all in.


And you don't think that would encourage even more attempts to come by boat? And what would you do with new arrivals?

johnsmith wrote:Australia refuses. It would much rather punish these people for daring to seek asylum


Oh right, so it has officially been voted down in parliament. I see. Perhaps you can provide a source to this unfortunate news.
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby Aussie » 05 Nov 2018, 18:49

Chris:

And you don't think that would encourage even more attempts to come by boat? And what would you do with new arrivals?


Why are we to be concerned about a decision made by an adult in some other Country to get on a boat? Is that not their right to make that choice?
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby johnsmith » 05 Nov 2018, 19:36

chris155au wrote:And you don't think that would encourage even more attempts to come by boat? And what would you do with new arrivals?


bah ... are refugee intake is far to low anyway. Our isolation offers us a natural protection anyway. We will never have to face the problems the US is facing. Believe it or not, most of the middle east does not want to live in Australia.

My preferred solution is to set up a regional processing centre in either Malaysia or Indonesia, in conjunction with all our neighbors, and process them there. Then any found to be genuine are to be flown to Australia.


No deaths at sea, no gulags, no treating people like animals, no punishing people for wanting a safe environment to raise their families. win/win
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby johnsmith » 05 Nov 2018, 19:39

chris155au wrote:Oh right, so it has officially been voted down in parliament. I see. Perhaps you can provide a source to this unfortunate news.


who says it's up to parliament?

Malcolm Turnbull says New Zealand's offer to resettle 150 detainees in off-shore detention on Manus Island has boosted demand for people smugglers.

The prime minister said people smugglers have used the offer - which Australia has rejected - to give false hope to asylum seekers.


https://www.sbs.com.au/news/turnbull-says-new-zealand-s-manus-offer-helps-people-smuggling-trade
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 05 Nov 2018, 19:41

johnsmith wrote:
we have no duty of care over decisions a third party makes in a foreign country.


Legally or morally speaking?

johnsmith wrote:Next you'll be telling us the govt has a duty of care to rescue everyone at risk from drug cartels in colombia.


A ridiculous comparison! If it was going on inside our borders, then we WOULD have a duty of care!
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby johnsmith » 05 Nov 2018, 19:44

chris155au wrote:Legally or morally speaking?


both.

chris155au wrote:A ridiculous comparison! If it was going on inside our borders, then we WOULD have a duty of care!


they're not getting on the boats in our borders.
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 05 Nov 2018, 19:47

johnsmith wrote: I disagree. We aren't responsible for decisions people make outside of our jurisdiction.


I agree. Now what about when they are INSIDE of our jurisdiction?

johnsmith wrote:That's a bullshit and convenient excuse. Whole cities are wiped out in these bombing campaigns. Instead of a 1000 people dying on a boat over 5 tyrs, you have 15 000 civilians in one year directly attributable to air strikes in Syria. The UN has civilian death toll for Syria estimates ranging 364,792 and 522,000 in Syria alone. But people don't just die from the bombs, they die from starvation, a lack of clean water, infection, lack of medical aid, and a whole myriad of other issues that affect a city under seige.


And if we were getting a shitload of boats from countries in such bad war conditions, you would have a point. Thankfully the UN is all over it and we have taken in refugees from these countries during these humanitarian crises'.
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby johnsmith » 05 Nov 2018, 19:52

chris155au wrote:I agree. Now what about when they are INSIDE of our jurisdiction?


then we abide by any agreements we have made

chris155au wrote:And if we were getting a shitload of boats from countries in such bad war conditions, you would have a point.


We were when you saw an increase in asylum seeker numbers during labors term. Numbers were up globally, not just in Australia.


chris155au wrote: Thankfully the UN is all over it and we have taken in refugees from these countries during these humanitarian crises'.


The UN is not all over it. There are camps that have had people waiting to have their claims heard for over ten years. The UN struggles to find places for the 20+ million asylum seekers. And it's going to get worse before it gets better. We're creating asylum seekers faster than we can place them.
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 05 Nov 2018, 20:11

johnsmith wrote:
bah ... are refugee intake is far to low anyway.


According to what metric? Have we been blasted by the UN or something?

johnsmith wrote:Believe it or not, most of the middle east does not want to live in Australia.


Why do you only mention Middle East here?

johnsmith wrote:My preferred solution is to set up a regional processing centre in either Malaysia or Indonesia, in conjunction with all our neighbors, and process them there.


Why would you set up a new centre in Malaysia or Indonesia? And what is the maximum time that you would have them stay in the processing centre?

johnsmith wrote:Then any found to be genuine are to be flown to Australia.


Would you place a limit on the numbers that we accept?

johnsmith wrote:No deaths at sea, no gulags, no treating people like animals, no punishing people for wanting a safe environment to raise their families. win/win


How can you say that there will be no deaths at sea?

johnsmith wrote:
who says it's up to parliament?

Malcolm Turnbull says New Zealand's offer to resettle 150 detainees in off-shore detention on Manus Island has boosted demand for people smugglers.

The prime minister said people smugglers have used the offer - which Australia has rejected - to give false hope to asylum seekers.


Right, now how the hell is that the same as "Australia refuses" which you said earlier?
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 05 Nov 2018, 20:16

johnsmith wrote:
both.


Why don't you think we have a moral duty of care?

johnsmith wrote:they're not getting on the boats in our borders.


Who isn't?
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 05 Nov 2018, 20:30

johnsmith wrote:then we abide by any agreements we have made


What if we were to build a physical sea barrier along the border. This would mean that the boats would come to a stand still. Lets say a boat was at the border barrier, right in front of our Navy, and it started to sink. What does our Navy do? Do nothing because they are outside our border?

chris155au wrote:We were when you saw an increase in asylum seeker numbers during labors term. Numbers were up globally, not just in Australia.


And if that continued to happen today, we would not be turning back boats from those countries because it wouldn't be safe to do so given how far they have come. My point is, a boat journey may be safer than certain war conditions, but for the majority of countries that boat people come from, they have a better chance of survival back home.

chris155au wrote:The UN is not all over it. There are camps that have had people waiting to have their claims heard for over ten years. The UN struggles to find places for the 20+ million asylum seekers. And it's going to get worse before it gets better. We're creating asylum seekers faster than we can place them.


Well they are over it as best as they can be. So then this is a UN problem, not an Australia problem, right?
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby johnsmith » 05 Nov 2018, 20:42

chris155au wrote:
According to what metric? Have we been blasted by the UN or something?


according to my metric.

chris155au wrote:
Why do you only mention Middle East here?

that's where the majority of asylum seekers coming by boat were coming from. I didn't think I needed to list every possible outcome to make my point

chris155au wrote:
Why would you set up a new centre in Malaysia or Indonesia?

because the aim is to stop drownings at sea.

chris155au wrote:And what is the maximum time that you would have them stay in the processing centre?

I wouldn't have a maximum time

chris155au wrote:Would you place a limit on the numbers that we accept?

yes, the limit would be whatever the annual quota for the year is set at. It's currently at about 17500, but I think we should raise it to 50 000

chris155au wrote:How can you say that there will be no deaths at sea?

you're unlikely to drown in a plane

chris155au wrote:Right, now how the hell is that the same as "Australia refuses" which you said earlier?

refused, rejected ... call it whatever the bloody hell you like. Your playing word games doesn't make any real difference. Either way Australia said no.

chris155au wrote:Why don't you think we have a moral duty of care?

for the same reason you don't think Australia has a moral duty of care to stop a kids dying of hunger in Africa. Or any other sad event that happens overseas.

chris155au wrote:
Who isn't?

the queen.
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 06 Nov 2018, 14:46

Aussie wrote:No it is not a good thing. I do not want my Navy acting illegally. No decent Aussie should. It is not Australia's decision to make as to who gets on what boat, shit or otherwise, in some jurisdiction beyond ours.

Aussie wrote:I'd rather no-one died at sea. But, it is not Australia's problem if someone in another Country gets on a boat.


What if we were to build a physical sea barrier along the border. This would mean that the boats would come to a stand still. Lets say a boat was at the border barrier, right in front of our Navy, and it started to sink. What does our Navy do? Do nothing because they are outside our border?

Aussie wrote:Ah. Simple, Grasshopper. Let's say some Sailor was charged with killing someone he had on board after taking him off a boat heading to Australia. His defence is "Operation Sovereign Borders." Nah. Judge tosses that right out the window


Right, but that would be an exception because someone has died. The fact is, that the government don't talk about operational matters with Operation Sovereign Borders in the same way that the police don't talk about certain operational matters either. Look, I agree with you that it is highly suspicious, but to claim that it PROVES that we are engaged in illegal activity, is PREPOSTEROUS! I would've thought that being a former lawyer you would know what incriminating evidence beyond all reasonable doubt is all about!

Aussie wrote:Why are we to be concerned about a decision made by an adult in some other Country to get on a boat? Is that not their right to make that choice?


It is their right to make that choice, but I believe that it is our moral responsibility to make sure that they don't drown from exercising that right!
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby johnsmith » 06 Nov 2018, 14:55

chris155au wrote: Lets say a boat was at the border barrier, right in front of our Navy, and it started to sink. What does our Navy do? Do nothing because they are outside our border?


rescuing people is not the same as piracy.

Australia, like all coastal states, is under an absolute obligation to undertake rescue at sea wherever and whenever necessary.
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby Aussie » 06 Nov 2018, 15:04

chris155au wrote:
Aussie wrote:No it is not a good thing. I do not want my Navy acting illegally. No decent Aussie should. It is not Australia's decision to make as to who gets on what boat, shit or otherwise, in some jurisdiction beyond ours.

Aussie wrote:I'd rather no-one died at sea. But, it is not Australia's problem if someone in another Country gets on a boat.


What if we were to build a physical sea barrier along the border. This would mean that the boats would come to a stand still. Lets say a boat was at the border barrier, right in front of our Navy, and it started to sink. What does our Navy do? Do nothing because they are outside our border?

Nope....they then would act in accordance with the Law of the Sea and render whatever assistance is required. The smugglers use that as a deliberate ploy to get their passengers onto an Australian vessel, at least.


Aussie wrote:Ah. Simple, Grasshopper. Let's say some Sailor was charged with killing someone he had on board after taking him off a boat heading to Australia. His defence is "Operation Sovereign Borders." Nah. Judge tosses that right out the window


Right, but that would be an exception because someone has died. The fact is, that the government don't talk about operational matters with Operation Sovereign Borders in the same way that the police don't talk about certain operational matters either. Look, I agree with you that it is highly suspicious, but to claim that it PROVES that we are engaged in illegal activity, is PREPOSTEROUS! I would've thought that being a former lawyer you would know what incriminating evidence beyond all reasonable doubt is all about!

Stop tossing the Lawyer crap at me. I am not here as a Law Professor. I am a commentator. This is not a Court Room where I spent a great deal of my legal career. Yes, it is highly suspicious, and yes, I have no access to evidence (yet) because the Government secretes it. Have you figured out what the only three alternatives are to how Operation Sovereign Borders works?

Aussie wrote:Why are we to be concerned about a decision made by an adult in some other Country to get on a boat? Is that not their right to make that choice?


It is their right to make that choice, but I believe that it is our moral responsibility to make sure that they don't drown from exercising that right!

Gee, we are gonna be very busy worrying about who jumps into what boats all over the World. How about those boats in the Mediterranian Sea. Our moral responsibility?
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby johnsmith » 06 Nov 2018, 16:45


It is their right to make that choice, but I believe that it is our moral responsibility to make sure that they don't drown from exercising that right!


what about our moral right to protect kids from starving in Africa?
Or our moral right to stop innocents being slaughtered by drug barons in Colombia?
or a myriad of other sad stories across the globe?

does not our moral responsibility extend to everyone?
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 08 Nov 2018, 17:57

chris155au wrote:Why would you set up a new centre in Malaysia or Indonesia?

johnsmith wrote:because the aim is to stop drownings at sea.


And how would a new centre in Malaysia or Indonesia stop drownings at sea? People would still attempt to come here by sea wouldn't they?
I don't understand how your plan would stop the boats from even leaving the country to try and come here.

chris155au wrote:How can you say that there will be no deaths at sea?

johnsmith wrote:you're unlikely to drown in a plane


And how are they supposed to get to the new center IN ORDER to get on the plane?

Malcolm Turnbull says New Zealand's offer to resettle 150 detainees in off-shore detention on Manus Island has boosted demand for people smugglers.
The prime minister said people smugglers have used the offer - which Australia has rejected - to give false hope to asylum seekers.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/turnbull-says-new-zealand-s-manus-offer-helps-people-smuggling-trade


chris155au wrote:Right, now how the hell is that the same as "Australia refuses" which you said earlier?


johnsmith wrote:refused, rejected ... call it whatever the bloody hell you like. Your playing word games doesn't make any real difference. Either way Australia said no.


Sorry, I thought you said that what Malcolm said meant that "Australia refuses." Anyway, do you actually realise that this refusal happened back in January? And do you realise that now, 10 months later, an arrangement is being worked through? Do you seriously know NOTHING about this?

chris155au wrote:Why don't you think we have a moral duty of care?

johnsmith wrote:for the same reason you don't think Australia has a moral duty of care to stop a kids dying of hunger in Africa. Or any other sad event that happens overseas.


How do you know what I think?
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby johnsmith » 08 Nov 2018, 18:48

chris155au wrote:And how would a new centre in Malaysia or Indonesia stop drownings at sea? People would still attempt to come here by sea wouldn't they?


why would they when the can approach an Australian in Malaysia and claim asylum?

chris155au wrote:And how are they supposed to get to the new center IN ORDER to get on the plane?

i thought you were only worried about drowning in Australian waters? Shall we now start rescuing asylum seekers in the Mediterranean too?

chris155au wrote: And do you realise that now, 10 months later, an arrangement is being worked through? Do you seriously know NOTHING about this?

they've been saying they're working through out an arrangement for the last 6 years. Don't tell me you actually believe the spin doctors this time? what makes this time so different to the last 50 times they said it over the last 6 years?

chris155au wrote:How do you know what I think?


you were the one who stipulated that our duty of care applied to 'Australian territory or waters'
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Re: Morrison's crocodile tears while he abuses refugee child

Postby chris155au » 08 Nov 2018, 20:55

What if we were to build a physical sea barrier along the border. This would mean that the boats would come to a stand still. Lets say a boat was at the border barrier, right in front of our Navy, and it started to sink. What does our Navy do? Do nothing because they are outside our border?


Aussie wrote:Nope....they then would act in accordance with the Law of the Sea and render whatever assistance is required. The smugglers use that as a deliberate ploy to get their passengers onto an Australian vessel, at least.


Great. That's the LEGAL argument. Now what about the MORAL argument? Let's assume that no such 'Law of the Sea' existed and we could do whatever we wanted.

Aussie wrote:Have you figured out what the only three alternatives are to how Operation Sovereign Borders works?


They may be the only three LIKELY options in your mind, but that hardly means much. Anyway, if I had to pick one I'd go for:

Aussie wrote:Our Navy is intercepting boats within the territorial waters of another Sovereign Nation. That is not only, but it is piracy.


...because as it stands, I don't see the evidence that it is so illegal. Firstly, "that is not only" what? And what makes you think the we would have to board the vessels in order to get them to turn back?

Aussie wrote:Why are we to be concerned about a decision made by an adult in some other Country to get on a boat? Is that not their right to make that choice?


It is their right to make that choice, but I believe that it is our moral responsibility to make sure that they don't drown from exercising that right!


Aussie wrote:Gee, we are gonna be very busy worrying about who jumps into what boats all over the World. How about those boats in the Mediterranian Sea. Our moral responsibility?


Are those those "boats in the Mediterranian Sea" heading straight for us?
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