Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby HBS Guy » 15 Jul 2018, 20:17

The private owners closed Hazelwood down, just like they closed the Pt Augusta generator and will close Liddel.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby Julia » 15 Jul 2018, 20:33

Renewable rubbish might seem "cheap" when it is subsidized and no account is taken of how many square kilometers of hundreds of high maintenance costly tiny output inefficient unstable windymills are required to match the huge output of an ever reliable totally stable coal generator.

But Mal has seen the light and is holding a tantalizing bait up for the power starved Australian people and industries - lots of cheap coal power just like the last 100 years. What an election winner!!!
And all that loverly harmless essential to life on earth CO2 is making plants grow like crazy all over the world saving people from starvation.



Image
Gee don't these windymills burn just like Lithium fire bombs




Turnbull to consider new Coal power in Australia (ten years too late)
July 14th, 2018

Last week only fringe loonies who were clinging to a dead technology were calling for a coal revival (mock mock mock). But now that the ACCC has spent months investigating and 400 pages reporting, they discovered that Tony Abbott and Craig Kelly and the Monash group were, hey, all right all along.

This is Turnbulls get-out-of-jail card, if he used it as an excuse to be sensible. He has in the past taken those cards and set fire to them. In a best case, he might, with arm twisted in a one-spare-seat-government, “build new coal” sometime in the far distant future, but whatever he does he won’t do anything other than minor hand waving about the Crony Green-Theft runaway train profits.

Turnbull weighs coal fix for energy wars
Simon Benson and Ben Packham, The Australian

A proposal for the federal government to financially guarantee the construction and operation of new dispatchable power generation, which could include clean coal-fired plants, is expected to be taken to cabinet with the backing of the Prime Minister.

Malcolm Turnbull yesterday confirmed he would seriously consider the key recommendation of a report by the competition watchdog to underwrite and potentially subsidise new “firm” and cheap power generation for industrial and commercial users.

Signalling a possible end to the energy wars within the Coalition partyroom, the recommendation was immediately endorsed by ­Nationals MPs, who have interpreted it as a green light for government to intervene in supporting the future of coal generation.

The government wouldn’t need to buy new coal plants if our market wasn’t so screwed in the first place. But it is screwed, so “OK”. Better would be for the government to get out of the market, stop trying to use our electricity grid as a Global Climate Controller, stop forcing consumers to buy green electrons, stop trying to pick-the-winners in the tech game, stop big energy groups from owning every kind of generator and game the bidding system, stop building transmission lines to Kalamazoo and stop employing green activists to run our national energy market.

No End to the Energy Wars
As for the idea that this “signals an end to the energy wars”… Not A Chance.

As long as customers are being forced to spend money on magical glass panels to stop droughts and save whales, or to subsidize windmills to hold back the tide and stop crocodiles, there will be no end to the energy wars. As long as Chinese Crypto miners can get electricity at a third of the price in Australia that Australian Newsagents can we know we still have a problem. Once the public realizes how fool politicians sold them out to the renewables industry with witchdoctor excuses, there will be hell to pay.

http://joannenova.com.au/2018/07/turnbull-to-consider-new-coal-power-in-australia-ten-years-too-late/
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby johnsmith » 15 Jul 2018, 20:45

Julia wrote:[b][i]Renewable rubbish might seem "cheap" when it is subsidized


funny how those who always make that claim tend to forget just how much coal mines and generators are subsidised
FD.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby Julia » 15 Jul 2018, 20:47

I like the way HBS always avoids discussing the practical consequences.

And Mr Smith carefully avoids just how many hundreds of windymills over many square kilometers are required to actually equal the output of a coal generator. The old generating capacity pot hole all renewable advocates fall into.
And windymills are only about 30% efficient due to the unstable wind input. And if the wind gets too strong they STOP!!!! Now you know why SA is in such a mess.

But there is a future for the otherwise useless unstable erratic windymills - driving electrolyzers splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen as hydrogen will be a big export to Japan as time goes on.



In case you ever wondered why unstable windymills make a formerly stable coal/hydro system unstable it is because the energy output is unstable because the wind energy input is unstable.

Here’s a picture – the output from every wind turbine connected to Australia’s Eastern Grid (with a notional capacity of 4675 MW) during January:

Image
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby HBS Guy » 15 Jul 2018, 21:06

The more wind and solar farms the more steady the output will be. Windfarms in the ocean have stronger and steadier wind and storage will move up as well. The renewable energy revolution won’t be stopped. Coal is pretty much a stranded asset.

There is such a thing as anthropogenic global warming and we need to reduce emissions of CO2, nitrous oxide etc. Coal doesn’t cut the mustard here, HELE is neither High Efficiency nor Low Emission.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby Julia » 15 Jul 2018, 21:26

Once again HBS carefully avoids the issue of supplying totally reliable steady 24/7 power to large industry like the Tomago smelter.

Tomago operates 24 hours a day continuous because they cannot let the aluminium freeze in the pots.

Tomago is an ideal continuous load for a cheap coal power station like Lidddel.

But the Greeny type arguments are all slanted towards closing down EVERY large industry like Tomago smelter.

The Greenies are following the United Nations Agenda 2030 which wants Australia to return to the way it was when Captain Cook arrived!!!!!!! See the way the Greenies have ruined the Tasmanian economy.

The Greenies know that if they can wreck the power system with renewable rubbish like Sth Aust they will force Industry to leave Australia.

if I didn't know better I would think HBS is pushing the Greenies' Global Warming HOAX!!!! No Global Warming for 21 years now and it is cold as a polar bear's tootsies in Australia now.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby Julia » 15 Jul 2018, 21:46

What the Greeny zealots hate is any mention of the real practical consequences of their treasonous plot to destroy ALL industry in Australia.




Eco-Irony: Power-Starved Australian Households Switch to Scavenged Firewood to Beat Winter’s Chill
May 13, 2018 by stopthesethings

Image
Gosh that renewable rubbish has sent power prices thru the roof with pensioners freezing to death in Globally Cooled freezing Australia


Let eco-zealots get control of your country’s power generation system, and rocketing power prices follow as night follows day.

Those countries whose energy policies have been hijacked by renewable energy rent seekers – pumping heavily subsidised, utterly unreliable and completely chaotic wind and solar – have watched their power prices double in a veritable heartbeat. The circus really only got started around 2000 (as an incident of countries signing up to the economic suicide pact aka the Kyoto protocol), but, like a runaway train, the destruction wrought continues to gather momentum.

Part of the problem has been that mainstream journos took their eye off the ball. Sure, there were plenty of hacks who drank the Kool-Aid early – ritually polishing up and regurgitating the propaganda faithfully delivered to them by wind and solar power outfits and/or their lobbyists on a daily basis – a few diehards still do – but, as with most ideological disasters, it’s the many who remained silent who have done the most damage.

Now that the inevitable jump in power prices is starting to affect not just the poorest and most vulnerable, but people whose station suggests they shouldn’t need to struggle, columnists are starting to take notice. And about time, too.

What’s staggering about this piece that appeared in The Australian last week is not the fact that householders are reduced to busting up packing crates and burning them to keep warm (because they can no longer afford to use electricity) it’s that this stuff isn’t screaming out from the front pages of every major newspaper.


Image

https://stopthesethings.com/2018/05/13/eco-irony-power-starved-australian-households-switch-to-scavenged-firewood-to-beat-winters-chill/
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby HBS Guy » 15 Jul 2018, 21:48

Lack of guts and brains to determine and implement a sensible energy policy by the Libs is what is raising power prices. Privatisation too, goldplating the poles and wires.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby Julia » 16 Jul 2018, 00:29

You gotta hand it to HBS he sure is devious.

To repeat the ideological led Greenies HATE to hear about the real practical consequences of their treasonous plot to reduce Australia to a 4th world country.

The new fangled rather useless windymills have a short life of 20 years if you are VERY lucky and they don't catch fire or mechanically disintegrate first.

Gosh the Greenies are now damaging the environment.


Image
Oh bother, there goes another one up in smoke.



Wind energy’s big disposal problem
Credit: Melanie Hall | Deutsche Welle | 13.07.2018 | http://www.dw.com ~~

Germany has more than 28,000 wind turbines – but many are old and by 2023 more than a third must be decommissioned. Disposing of them is a huge environmental problem. Expert Jan Tessmer tells DW he’s optimistic.

DW: Dr Tessmer, disposing of wind turbines is extremely difficult. Their concrete bases go as deep as 30 meters into the ground, and are hard to fully remove, while the rotor blades contain glass and carbon fibers – they give off dust and toxic gases so burning them isn’t an option. Some environmentalists say this problem is being swept under the carpet, what do you think?

Jan Tessmer: I actually think everything is relative. Of course it is an issue and of course you don’t get anything for free, but you always have to see it in relation, what are the values you get out of the wind turbine and I think yes, some efforts have to be made to efficiently, and also without environmental damage, get turbines recycled or out of the ground.

There are huge concrete foundations that have to be gotten out but I don’t see there being any principal problem that could not be overcome. It will probably be a challenge for technology. It will really be an issue over the next years and decades probably to get old turbines off the field, so I expect industry will find technologies to cope with it.

Is the difficulty in disposing of wind turbines hurting wind energy’s reputation as a green power source?

Yes, sure. I actually think it is important that we find good technologies for recycling, because wind turbines are pioneers in green energy technologies, and it would be a pity if we also cannot find green and environmentally-friendly technologies for recycling them. But as I said, I think it’s only a matter of time to develop them and I’m quite confident that the image of wind turbines can be kept as a green technology.

Do you think the next generation of wind turbines will be more eco-friendly?

I would probably think that the most modern turbines are made more with the goal to have more energy production and that then 20 years later, when these turbines are at the end of their life, then the researchers find the right technologies for their recycling. I think this is just the natural way. But I don’t think in principal that the modern turbines are more environmentally-friendly than the older ones. I don’t think so, but it’s just an opinion.

Do you think wind energy is the greenest technology we currently have?

This is very difficult. I think it really is one of the most environmentally-friendly technologies I’m aware of. I must admit that I don’t know all the other possibilities in detail, but actually I also don’t know of any energy production technology that is more environmentally-friendly than wind energy. I mean, if you think about water energy, of course that sounds at first glance perhaps more green.

But on the other hand if you have huge dams, this is also a lot of material put directly into nature. And if you compare it with PV – photovoltaic – for example, I think there is a lot more chemical energy put inside before they can go active, so yes, I think wind energy is quite efficient.

The very easy calculation is how much energy do I have to put in the production process of a turbine combined with how much energy I have to put into the production process of solar cells, for example, and the comparisons there are very good for wind energy, meaning that we need only very little energy to produce a wind turbine and the maturation is quite quick.

How do you assess the German government’s appetite currently for wind energy?

It’s a difficult question to answer because it can always be more. I think the government is pushing this technology, I think they know quite well that this is a technology that can help us in Germany be in front of development, and they really want us to keep up that tradition.

On the other hand, there are always issues where we complain and we see possibilities that the government could push it even more. But in comparison to other countries, I think the German government does quite a good job.

Do you think that environmentalists are still mostly pro wind energy or do you think there’s been a pushback regarding the difficulties in disposing of wind turbines?

I think we have more and more problems with the issue of acceptance. I wouldn’t say it’s because of the disposal issue, I think it’s more on issues like noise or the lightning effects during the night, that people feel disturbed. I don’t think people think so much about the disposal issue, although it might be important and I also think that we have to address this issue.

From my point of view, what I feel from the publicity, I don’t get much pressure on that fact [disposing of wind turbines]. We don’t have any projects on that, and in fact it’s a mirror of the situation of the need that is communicated. If people would think it’s a very necessary task to do [research on wind turbine disposal], then they would ask us for projects to do so and then we would do that. We are a publically-funded research organization and we feel it is our mission to work on topics that are asked for. But since this issue is not so much addressed, we haven’t done anything there yet. That might change.

Dr Jan Tessmer is co-ordinator on wind energy research at the German Aerospace Center (DLR).

This interview was conducted by Melanie Hall.

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2018/07/14/wind-energys-big-disposal-problem/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NWW-News+%28National+Wind+Watch%3A+News%29
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby HBS Guy » 16 Jul 2018, 02:13

Coal fired generators too get old and have to be replaced. Sure, one or two towers might catch fire. Heard of the Morwell brown coal mine fire? Burned for weeks!

Morwell Power Station, riddled with asbestos, granted heritage ... - ABC
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-13/o ... ../9425526
Feb 12, 2018 - Related Story: Temporary heritage protection for old Morwell power ... Energy Brix Power Station once brought brown coal-fired electricity into ...

Fire at Morwell reignites brown-coal debate - The Age
https://www.theage.com.au › National › Victoria
Mar 9, 2014 - Fire at Morwell reignites brown-coal debate. As the poisonous smog clears from the Morwell blaze, government plans to amp up the state's ...

Morwell residents to rally over coal fire fallout - The Age
https://www.theage.com.au › National › Victoria
Apr 27, 2014 - Mr Ellis said money from a $90 million scheme jointly funded by the federal and state governments for new brown coal technology should…


Coal mining is a very dangerous pursuit!

No, renewable energy is needed. More wind and solar farms, a very high voltage DC network linking them and pumped hydro and other storage will ensure steady power. The latest solar panels can produce electricity on even a cloudy day, windfarms in the oceans have stronger and more reliable wind, and so on. The Cooper Basin has usuable geothermal power. Little has been done with wave and tidal energy.

Like I said, we need to cut emissions of CO2 and getting rid of all the other pollution of coal fired power will be good too.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby DonDeeHippy » 16 Jul 2018, 07:16

yeah scotland have done a promicing tidal generator.
also geothermal, biogas, hell even hydrogen inserted into natural gas, and solar mirrors.
Off shore wind is also looking good around the world as the wind is less likely to drop off and not a eye or ear sore. :thumb
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby HBS Guy » 16 Jul 2018, 11:31

Solar needs like 20Km by 20Km array of panels or mirrors for utility scale electricity. Connected to the cities and other RE generators and stored energy sites by very high voltage DC grid so if one area has no sun/wind storage and RE generators on the other side of the country can supply the shortfall.

The RE revolution has hardly begun!
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby DonDeeHippy » 16 Jul 2018, 12:07

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent_Dunes_Solar_Energy_Project
this one is 100mw and covers 1km2 and has a 1.2gwh battery...
Total collector area
296 acres (1,200,000 m2)
working properly it should do 100,000 houses for 10 hours each night

20km's by 20kms would be 40 gw, australia only has a 50gw capasity. :thumb
also this is the same bunch that r to build the SA one.
They r also trying to make nucular plants (gen 4) with the molten salt tech as well, so all contained... still a long way off though. :thumb
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby HBS Guy » 16 Jul 2018, 12:18

Yeah, but electricity demand will grow—EVs are coming whether we are ready or not! And that 40GW is 20GW with no generation at night.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby DonDeeHippy » 16 Jul 2018, 12:34

HBS Guy wrote:Yeah, but electricity demand will grow—EVs are coming whether we are ready or not! And that 40GW is 20GW with no generation at night.

that has a battery included too , its a 480gwh battery + 40 gw of generation.

Annual net output
482 GW·h (NREL estimated) x 400
is 528gwh a day with a 20km x 20km square area
australia uses 670gwh a day now.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby DonDeeHippy » 16 Jul 2018, 12:43

soalr panels need about the same space about 100mwh for 1km2.
The power station near me is on a bit of land 37km2 then the coal mine next to it is 40km2. Thats only 100km's inland of brissy. If just that space was used for solar panels , 7 gw of solar.
I think there r another 4 stations around brissy about the same size.
Space isnt really a issue in Australia.....
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby HBS Guy » 16 Jul 2018, 13:07

Nor are deserts with plenty sunny days!

We had some Leadership worthy of the name we would be selling power to Indo, PNG etc. No Leadership at all ATM.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby DonDeeHippy » 16 Jul 2018, 18:38

HBS Guy wrote:Nor are deserts with plenty sunny days!

We had some Leadership worthy of the name we would be selling power to Indo, PNG etc. No Leadership at all ATM.

yup with a bridge made of solar panels with fisheries under them like china do :thumb
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby Julia » 17 Jul 2018, 18:47

Image

And the dumb Greeny types reckon this erratic unstable mess can supply a 300MW load 24/7 like Tomago aluminium smelter.

Even AGL admits the renewable rubbish is no good because they are proposing a gas generator just for the Tomago smelter.

SA is the canary in the coalmine for renewable rubbish with its chaotic power system always on the verge of collapse.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby johnsmith » 17 Jul 2018, 18:54

Julia wrote:Image



and some days the wind doesn't blow at all :roll :roll :roll
FD.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby Julia » 17 Jul 2018, 19:11

Mr Smith,
What's wrong ? You agreed with me!!

Now the Lib Govt has recognized th futility of renewable rubbish and are pledging to maintain the existing coal generators well into the future to continue to provide CHEAP RELIABLE power which the renewable rubbish can NEVER do.

If there was NO SUBSIDY then there would be NO uneconomic ineffectual inefficient high maintenance renewable rubbish.

Why do you think there are some 1000 new HELE coal generators being built around the world ?

About the only useful use for renewable rubbish is powering water electrolyzers to make hydrogen for export to Japan.

Small renewable rubbish works for things like a domestic house so long as it has the mains as backup. Otherwise they may spend some time in the dark at times.

Secondary power renewable rubbish is lightweight stuff that is incapable of supplying BIG POWER to industry. That requires BIG primary power like coal or hydro.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby HBS Guy » 17 Jul 2018, 19:17

There will be no coal fired generators built. Coal is a stranded asset pretty much.

While conservatives cannot accept change the world will be changing all around them. Renewable energy, electric vehicles!
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby johnsmith » 17 Jul 2018, 19:21

Julia wrote:Mr Smith,
What's wrong ? You agreed with me!!


that he wind doesn't blow constantly 24/7? no shit sherlock.

Whats that got to do with it's ability to create renewable energy?

Julia wrote:If there was NO SUBSIDY then there would be NO uneconomic ineffectual inefficient high maintenance renewable rubbish.

and what if we take away all the coal minersa and coal generators subsidies? how well do you think they'll compare then? :gup :gup
FD.
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby Julia » 10 Aug 2018, 11:09

The Greenies' solution to the power supply is to CLOSE DOWN ALL INDUSTRY IN AUSTRALIA.

That is the ONLY way if all primary power generation is lost.

Can you just imagine Tomago aluminium smelter when the wind stops and the aluminium freezes in the pots and takes days to recover ?

And all that tiny mousepower battery in SA does is back up the local wind/solar farm and provide a tiny bit of power to give the diesel and gas turbines time to start if the link to the Vic coalfields fails and the wind stops.
It also provides a little bit of power to try to stabilize the synchronous frequency which wanders all over the place with wind and solar.

The tiny mousepower battery can supply 100MW max and has a capacity of 129MWH which means it can supply 100MW for 1.29 hours.

Lot of use when SA load is about 2000MW!!!!!

And how do the Greenies reckon you can make steel without coal to melt the ore ?
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Re: Has coal sneaked in under the Libs back door ?

Postby HBS Guy » 10 Aug 2018, 11:36

That battery has provided grid services like keeping frequency steady when a coal fired power station suddenly goes off line—not just RE is intermittent! It has stored excess wind energy then sold that when wind is quiet. Its job is not as emergency standby. This is why big batteries are being built all over the place now. They make money smoothing out fluctuations in supply and performing grid services.

Metallurgical coal is not thermal coal.

You would do well to read more and post less, Julia.
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