The latest shame from Nauru

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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Squire » 15 Jul 2018, 13:58

HBS Guy wrote:
Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
mothra wrote:
And absolutely nobody has said, ever, that migration should be uncapped.


So, at some point then, we are going to be inhumane, aren’t we? Once the 50,000 is reached then, all the rest stay in processing centres until we can release them the following the year.

By the way, the majority of refugees are processed on shore. The offshore centres are for unlawful entry, in order to deter people coming to Australia illegally.

There are no illegal ASs. It is not illegal to cross a border to seek asylum—we DID sign the UN Refugee Charter. So you can call crossing the sea border irregular arrival but NOT illegal arrival. The stinking Libs always call them illegals but that is NOT what they are! Please remember that.


That's true. Being illegal means you have not made your presence in the country known.

In fact, most of these people were kidnapped at sea and taken to third countries which is illegal by international law.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby HBS Guy » 15 Jul 2018, 14:07

Boat turnbacks will remain policy tho, illegal or not.

What about keeping people in custody who have not been charged or convicted of any crime? That is illegal and immoral and undemocratic!
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 15 Jul 2018, 14:56

That is illegal..........


No. It's legal under that UN Convention. I think the High Court has also said so, but don't quote me on that.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby HBS Guy » 15 Jul 2018, 15:26

SHOULD be illegal!
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 15 Jul 2018, 18:23

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
mothra wrote:
And absolutely nobody has said, ever, that migration should be uncapped.


So, at some point then, we are going to be inhumane, aren’t we? Once the 50,000 is reached then, all the rest stay in processing centres until we can release them the following the year.

By the way, the majority of refugees are processed on shore. The offshore centres are for unlawful entry, in order to deter people coming to Australia illegally.


two can play thAt game auggie. At some point the global population is going to reach 50B and then you'll have to let them in anyway :oops :roll


Why would we have to let them in if the population is at 50b???
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 15 Jul 2018, 18:25

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Aussie wrote:[


There is no solution, other than....remove the reason these people are leaving Home.


Yes. There is. Humane, facilitated refugee camps in regional locations which are sponsored by the world's wealthier nations. We cut people smugglers off at the root by providing safe transport for these people ourselves.

All off-shore detainees to be flown to Australia immediately and reunited with their families.


So, you basically want to do the job of the people smugglers themselves by providing a taxi service to Australia? Do you think that is likely to be an incentive or disincentive for people smuggling?



why would anyone get on a leaky boat when they can be flown over is relative safety?


Because without offshore detention, they'd be processed quicker. Those who fly over here have gone to the whole rigmarole. Why do you think Gillard re-opened Nauru? Because there was a significant increase in unlawful arrivals to Australia.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 15 Jul 2018, 18:26

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Aussie wrote:So....we no longer have that money.

We have to be realistic about this. Australia cannot employ the people we have here already. That is a fact.


so we can find the money to torture, people but can't find that same money to treat people decently? get real aussie.

Start with turnbulls $24B a year in tax cuts, more than enough money there.

You need to stop believing the hype aussie, it's not about money. Money is the excuse they use to lure the simpletons into thinking we have to be inhumane.


The cost is in deterrence, John Smith. The cost of not deterring is greater than deterring in be long term.



bullshit. Even if we assumed the bullshit the right throws out that they spend the rest of their lives on the dole, do you know how many people you can pay the dole to for the next 50 yrs with $24B


I'm talking about deterring people from entering Australia illegally.

Question: do you believe we should deter people from entering here illegally?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 15 Jul 2018, 18:29

HBS Guy wrote:
Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
mothra wrote:
And absolutely nobody has said, ever, that migration should be uncapped.


So, at some point then, we are going to be inhumane, aren’t we? Once the 50,000 is reached then, all the rest stay in processing centres until we can release them the following the year.

By the way, the majority of refugees are processed on shore. The offshore centres are for unlawful entry, in order to deter people coming to Australia illegally.

There are no illegal ASs. It is not illegal to cross a border to seek asylum—we DID sign the UN Refugee Charter. So you can call crossing the sea border irregular arrival but NOT illegal arrival. The stinking Libs always call them illegals but that is NOT what they are! Please remember that.


You are correct: there are no illegal Asylum Seekers, which is the problem, isn't it Monk? That means that any number of people can enter a country claiming asylum, and we are obliged to process them.

The purpose of offshore detention is to deter floods of people from seeking asylum by entering the country illegally.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby HBS Guy » 15 Jul 2018, 18:34

ASs enter the country legally, no matter how irregular their means of arrival are.

What is illegal is overstaying a visa.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 15 Jul 2018, 18:37

Auggie wrote:I'm talking about deterring people from entering Australia illegally.


The cost of deterrence under my scheme would be NIL. You can't get anymore cost effective than that.

Auggie wrote: do you believe we should deter people from entering here illegally?


sure, anyone overstaying their tourism visa should be permanently banned from re-entering the country.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 15 Jul 2018, 18:38

HBS Guy wrote:ASs enter the country legally, no matter how irregular their means of arrival are.

What is illegal is overstaying a visa.


Their illegal entry status is 'retroactive', which means that once they claim asylum, any law which is supposed to deem them illegal entrants is 'retroactively' revoked.

The problem with this practically is that it makes no option to control numbers.

Now, surely you agree there should be a cap on all immigration, both refugee or otherwise. At some point, we have to process (or detain) people who go about the cap.

Offshore processing is designed to deter people from claiming asylum illegally (i.e. entering the country illegal then having that illegal status 'retroactively' revoked).
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 15 Jul 2018, 18:40

johnsmith wrote:The cost of deterrence under my scheme would be NIL. You can't get anymore cost effective than that.


What was that scheme again?

johnsmith wrote:sure, anyone overstaying their tourism visa should be permanently banned from re-entering the country.


That's a reactive policy, not a preventative process. Reactive policies cost more in most cases than preventative policies.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 15 Jul 2018, 18:41

The purpose of offshore detention is to deter floods of people from seeking asylum by entering the country illegally.


No Auggie, I disagree.

The purpose of offshore detention is a backstop if some boat gets past our Navy pirates. Also, it allows our piss weak politicians to claim they are yet still meeting Australia's obligation under that UN Convention.

I would be uncomfortable with, yet I would have nowhere to argue if Australia had the balls to renege on that Convention.

In a typical 'Aussie' way, I can see some 'honour' in that. It will never happen as our Leaders want us to be seen as signatories while at the same time, 'we' are doing all we can to avoid our responsibilities.

It is as simple as that.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 15 Jul 2018, 18:42

Auggie wrote:What was that scheme agai


fly them here from regional processing centers.

Auggie wrote:
That's a reactive policy, not a preventative process.

perhaps you want to ban tourists in the first place?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 15 Jul 2018, 18:44

Aussie wrote:The purpose of offshore detention is a backstop if some boat gets past our Navy pirates. Also, it allows our piss weak politicians to claim they are yet still meeting Australia's obligation under that UN Convention.


Isn't that essentially the same thing? If people are getting past our boats; once they arrive at Australian shores/waters, they can claim asylum, at which point their 'illegal status' is retroactively revoked.

If I arrive at Australia without a visa, and stand at the gate silent (or say that I want to visit Australia), I have entered illegally. After 2 hours in prison (due to my silence), as soon as I say, 'I'm claiming asylum', my illegal entry is revoked 'retroactively'.
Last edited by Auggie on 15 Jul 2018, 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 15 Jul 2018, 18:47

johnsmith wrote:fly them here from regional processing centers.


And how would that prevent people from entering the country illegally?

johnsmith wrote:perhaps you want to ban tourists in the first place?


Tourist visas are completely different: there is a process to apply for in order to become a tourist; i.e. there are controls on that PRIOR to when they arrive. Are there people who stay illegally, of course.

With people seeking asylum, there is no control, because anyone who claims asylum has their illegal status retroactively revoked.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 15 Jul 2018, 18:56

Auggie wrote:And how would that prevent people from entering the country illegally?



why would they risk their lives when they can be processed humanely and flown here?



Auggie wrote:Tourist visas are completely different: there is a process to apply for in order to become a tourist; i.e. there are controls on that PRIOR to when they arrive. Are there people who stay illegally, of course.

With people seeking asylum, there is no control, because anyone who claims asylum has their illegal status retroactively revoked.


you keep asking about illegals, I just assumed you were referring to tourists since you've already been told a thousand times that there is nothing illegal about coming here to claim asylum
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 15 Jul 2018, 18:57

Auggie wrote:
Aussie wrote:The purpose of offshore detention is a backstop if some boat gets past our Navy pirates. Also, it allows our piss weak politicians to claim they are yet still meeting Australia's obligation under that UN Convention.


Isn't that essentially the same thing? If people are getting past our boats; once they arrive at Australian shores/waters, they can claim asylum, at which point their 'illegal status' is retroactively revoked.

If I arrive at Australia without a visa, and stand at the gate silent (or say that I want to visit Australia), I have entered illegally. After 2 hours in prison (due to my silence), as soon as I say, 'I'm claiming asylum', my illegal entry is revoked 'retroactively'.


Bottom line is that I get your point. Boat people get pirated and then off shored if they get to our waters. Fly ins get to be processed in Australia.

Sucks. But.....we were put right between a rock and a hard place.

Best solution is to make the Homes of these desperate people a habitable place.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 15 Jul 2018, 19:04

johnsmith wrote:you keep asking about illegals, I just assumed you were referring to tourists since you've already been told a thousand times that there is nothing illegal about coming here to claim asylum


And I've told you a thousand times that the illegal status is 'retroactively' revoked. Do you understand what retroactive means?

johnsmith wrote:why would they risk their lives when they can be processed humanely and flown here?


That doesn't answer the question as to how you can control numbers. If the Australian government offered its own free Uber service, then the whole process of seeking asylum, (who enter legally) is moot.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 15 Jul 2018, 19:07

Aussie wrote:
Auggie wrote:
Aussie wrote:The purpose of offshore detention is a backstop if some boat gets past our Navy pirates. Also, it allows our piss weak politicians to claim they are yet still meeting Australia's obligation under that UN Convention.


Isn't that essentially the same thing? If people are getting past our boats; once they arrive at Australian shores/waters, they can claim asylum, at which point their 'illegal status' is retroactively revoked.

If I arrive at Australia without a visa, and stand at the gate silent (or say that I want to visit Australia), I have entered illegally. After 2 hours in prison (due to my silence), as soon as I say, 'I'm claiming asylum', my illegal entry is revoked 'retroactively'.


Bottom line is that I get your point. Boat people get pirated and then off shored if they get to our waters. Fly ins get to be processed in Australia.

Sucks. But.....we were put right between a rock and a hard place.

Best solution is to make the Homes of these desperate people a habitable place.


I agree with the last point. What do you describe as 'habitable'? Would the place be on par to what the average Australian lives in? If the facilities are really hospitable, then aren't they just glorified 'offshore' suburbs? Is this going to be a deterrent for legal entry?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 15 Jul 2018, 19:25

What do you describe as 'habitable'?


Whatever it was before we bombed the crap out of it. Places like Sri Lanka/Myanmar are a tad different, and more confronting for my position.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 15 Jul 2018, 19:52

Aussie wrote:
What do you describe as 'habitable'?


Whatever it was before we bombed the crap out of it. Places like Sri Lanka/Myanmar are a tad different, and more confronting for my position.


Ah, my apologies, I misunderstood what you said.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 15 Jul 2018, 20:01

Auggie wrote:And I've told you a thousand times that the illegal status is 'retroactively' revoked.


then you would be wrong.

Auggie wrote:Do you understand what retroactive means?

it's irrelevant since nothing happens retroactively anyway. Unless you think these asylum seekers have been here since pre 1954? From that point on, it has been totally legal for them to come here to claim asylum regardless of how they get here.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 15 Jul 2018, 20:05

Auggie wrote:That doesn't answer the question as to how you can control numbers.


don't create refugees and you won't need to worry bout that. Do you realise that almost every time we've had a boom in refugee numbers it has been as a direct result of western military action in other areas, namely the middle east? fuck off and leave them to themselves. You can't destroy the homes and all the infrastructure that maintains those cities of millions then cry when those millions go seeking a new home.
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