Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby johnsmith » 24 Apr 2018, 20:35

CaesarAugustus wrote:Do fathers breast-feed?


these days women can pump breast milk into a bottle which the father feeds to the baby at a later time.

i have great memories of feeding my oldest ... although at the time I usually complained because I always got the 4am duty. Now I miss doing it.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby Auggie » 24 Apr 2018, 20:37

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:Do fathers breast-feed?


these days women can pump breast milk into a bottle which the father feeds to the baby at a later time.

i have great memories of feeding my oldest ... although at the time I usually complained because I always got the 4am duty. Now I miss doing it.


Yes, and the time it takes for the woman to do it, and the effort she has to exert.

I don't have an issue with her being PM. The fact is that being PM is not like any other run-of-the-mill job. I don't understand how she could run a country whilst raising a infant. If the child was 2 or 3 that's different, but the first year is crucial. Even if she had a full-time job working in an office, it would be perfectly all right.

But, being PM and running a country is quite a different thing. This has nothing to do with 'women and their careers'.

What? Is she going to have to breast-feed in Cabinet meetings?
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby Auggie » 24 Apr 2018, 20:41

mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
it's still the case in the majority of cases. :B



True. But it's fast changing ... which is great for all of us.

The fact that men are never asked about kids devalues fatherhood.

The fact that women always are devalues a our womanhood.


Just to clarify: is this your last word on the issue?

Have you addressed the issue as much as you're willing?

Do you refuse to further engage with my 'mansplaining'?

Just checking: so that I can move on, and not harass you for an answer.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby johnsmith » 24 Apr 2018, 20:51

CaesarAugustus wrote:Yes, and the time it takes for the woman to do it, and the effort she has to exert.


no more time and effort than feeding the actual baby. ..... the difference is in the timing. She can pump at night while sitting in front of the tv with baby asleep beside her.

CaesarAugustus wrote:I don't understand how she could run a country whilst raising a infant.


do you realise that in the old days many of the aristocrats and upper class ladies of society would leave the child rearing to nursemaids and nannies? I'm sure Jacinta can arrange some help when she needs it.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby Auggie » 24 Apr 2018, 20:53

johnsmith wrote:do you realise that in the old days many of the aristocrats and upper class ladies of society would leave the child rearing to nursemaids and nannies? I'm sure Jacinta can arrange some help when she needs it.


Well, I suppose you're right.

I don't deny she can't do it. I just stated that I hope she can manage it. I can appreciate that raising a child is hard for both the man and the woman.

EDIT: by the way, it's funny that you mention aristocrats and upper-class ladies, and her getting help when she's a Labour PM; help that not many ordinary NZ families would be able to get.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby Auggie » 24 Apr 2018, 20:57

CA
Last edited by Auggie on 25 Apr 2018, 01:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby johnsmith » 24 Apr 2018, 21:05

CaesarAugustus wrote:but I actually see as raising the importance of the mother over the father,


i take offence at that. Mother isn't more important, just different. Each parent is equally capable of doing the others role when called upon.

Sure, men are bludgers and will milk mums 'maternal instincts' when they can, but when they can't, then the paternal instincts kick in just as hard. It's not that one is better than the other, it's than men are bludgers when they can get away with it.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby mothra » 24 Apr 2018, 21:06

CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:Do fathers breast-feed?


these days women can pump breast milk into a bottle which the father feeds to the baby at a later time.

i have great memories of feeding my oldest ... although at the time I usually complained because I always got the 4am duty. Now I miss doing it.


Yes, and the time it takes for the woman to do it, and the effort she has to exert.



You're overestimating the effort and time ... but regardless, if she wants to, what's it to you?
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby mothra » 24 Apr 2018, 21:06

CaesarAugustus wrote:What? Is she going to have to breast-feed in Cabinet meetings?


Why not?
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby mothra » 24 Apr 2018, 21:07

CaesarAugustus wrote:
mothra wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:It'll be interesting to see how she juggles both of these priorities. I'd imagine it would be very hard to be PM and to raise newly-born infant, but she seems more than capable. We'll have to see.



Yes. Because we always ask this about fathers don't we.


We don't ask fathers about it, because fathers don't have the same intimate connection with their children as the mother.

You might see this point of view as being demeaning toward fathers, but I actually see as raising the importance of the mother over the father, although I don't deny the important role that fathers play.


Just bullshit. Demeaning to men and women.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby mothra » 24 Apr 2018, 21:08

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:but I actually see as raising the importance of the mother over the father,


i take offence at that. Mother isn't more important, just different. Each parent is equally capable of doing the others role when called upon.

Sure, men are bludgers and will milk mums 'maternal instincts' when they can, but when they can't, then the paternal instincts kick in just as hard. It's not that one is better than the other, it's than men are bludgers when they can get away with it.


I know a few men who could do with hearing that.

Women too.

But you've absolutely nailed it.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby Auggie » 24 Apr 2018, 21:12

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:but I actually see as raising the importance of the mother over the father,


i take offence at that. Mother isn't more important, just different. Each parent is equally capable of doing the others role when called upon.

Sure, men are bludgers and will milk mums 'maternal instincts' when they can, but when they can't, then the paternal instincts kick in just as hard. It's not that one is better than the other, it's than men are bludgers when they can get away with it.


Well, you didn't carry the child, did you?
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby johnsmith » 24 Apr 2018, 21:14

mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:but I actually see as raising the importance of the mother over the father,


i take offence at that. Mother isn't more important, just different. Each parent is equally capable of doing the others role when called upon.

Sure, men are bludgers and will milk mums 'maternal instincts' when they can, but when they can't, then the paternal instincts kick in just as hard. It's not that one is better than the other, it's than men are bludgers when they can get away with it.


I know a few men who could do with hearing that.

Women too.

But you've absolutely nailed it.



especially the bludging part ....


don't tell anyone but at 3am, when one of the kids isn't feeling well and yelling out for mum, if I hear them first I usually 'turn in bed' bumping into wifey dearest hard enough that she isn't going to miss the second call for mum .... more often than not mum isn't even aware of what woke her up, assuming it was the call :giggle :giggle :giggle :giggle

:hush :hush
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby Auggie » 24 Apr 2018, 21:15

mothra wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
mothra wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:It'll be interesting to see how she juggles both of these priorities. I'd imagine it would be very hard to be PM and to raise newly-born infant, but she seems more than capable. We'll have to see.



Yes. Because we always ask this about fathers don't we.


We don't ask fathers about it, because fathers don't have the same intimate connection with their children as the mother.

You might see this point of view as being demeaning toward fathers, but I actually see as raising the importance of the mother over the father, although I don't deny the important role that fathers play.


Just bullshit. Demeaning to men and women.


How so? Did you not carry the child in your belly for 9 months? Did you not have to go through the pain of giving birth? What did the man have to do? Just do the easy part??

Did the baby suck your milk or your husband's?

That you believe that the husband is of equal importance in terms of an intimate connection with your children is frankly astounding, given that he didn't have to do anything prior to the birth.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby johnsmith » 24 Apr 2018, 21:15

CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:but I actually see as raising the importance of the mother over the father,


i take offence at that. Mother isn't more important, just different. Each parent is equally capable of doing the others role when called upon.

Sure, men are bludgers and will milk mums 'maternal instincts' when they can, but when they can't, then the paternal instincts kick in just as hard. It's not that one is better than the other, it's than men are bludgers when they can get away with it.


Well, you didn't carry the child, did you?



moved the goalposts now ehh .... she didn't need to breastfeed while carrying :gup :gup :gup
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby mothra » 24 Apr 2018, 21:16

johnsmith wrote:
don't tell anyone but at 3am, when one of the kids isn't feeling well and yelling out for mum, if I hear them first I usually 'turn in bed' bumping into wifey dearest hard enough that she isn't going to miss the second call for mum .... more often than not mum isn't even aware of what woke her up, assuming it was the call :giggle :giggle :giggle :giggle

:hush :hush



One day, i will speak with your wife ...
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby johnsmith » 24 Apr 2018, 21:18

CaesarAugustus wrote: Did you not have to go through the pain of giving birth?


it was terrible .... i was kept awake all night, i got told off for being considerate enough to offer her a banana, then I got told off again for daring to eat said banana after she refused. Then I got told off again for snoozing on my nice new electric leather recliner .... I wasn't even allowed to suck on the tube with the drugs.

it's tough being a dad during childbirth

:clap :clap :clap
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby Auggie » 24 Apr 2018, 21:18

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:but I actually see as raising the importance of the mother over the father,


i take offence at that. Mother isn't more important, just different. Each parent is equally capable of doing the others role when called upon.

Sure, men are bludgers and will milk mums 'maternal instincts' when they can, but when they can't, then the paternal instincts kick in just as hard. It's not that one is better than the other, it's than men are bludgers when they can get away with it.


Well, you didn't carry the child, did you?



moved the goalposts now ehh .... she didn't need to breastfeed while carrying :gup :gup :gup


No, I didn't move the goal posts. I'm presenting an additional argument.

It is a biological fact that the mother has to go through more pain and stress throughout the process than the man does.

Are you telling me that whole process doesn't create a more intimate connection with the children for the mother than the father??
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby mothra » 24 Apr 2018, 21:18

CaesarAugustus wrote:That you believe that the husband is of equal importance in terms of an intimate connection with your children is frankly astounding, given that he didn't have to do anything prior to the birth.


He was right next to me for every part of it. His bond with his children started the while they were still inside of me.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby Auggie » 24 Apr 2018, 21:19

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote: Did you not have to go through the pain of giving birth?


it was terrible .... i was kept awake all night, i got told off for being considerate enough to offer her a banana, then I got told off again for daring to eat said banana after she refused. Then I got told off again for snoozing on my nice new electric leather recliner .... I wasn't even allowed to suck on the tube with the drugs.

it's tough being a dad during childbirth

:clap :clap :clap


I'm sure it was tough for you.

But it was tougher for her. It's always tougher for the mother.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby Auggie » 24 Apr 2018, 21:19

mothra wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:That you believe that the husband is of equal importance in terms of an intimate connection with your children is frankly astounding, given that he didn't have to do anything prior to the birth.


He was right next to me for every part of it. His bond with his children started the while they were still inside of me.


Not the same, Mothra. And I think you know that.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby mothra » 24 Apr 2018, 21:21

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote: Did you not have to go through the pain of giving birth?


it was terrible .... i was kept awake all night, i got told off for being considerate enough to offer her a banana, then I got told off again for daring to eat said banana after she refused. Then I got told off again for snoozing on my nice new electric leather recliner .... I wasn't even allowed to suck on the tube with the drugs.

it's tough being a dad during childbirth

:clap :clap :clap


Did you at least do what my dad did and made sure the car was parked on a hill?

Very important.

What was with the banana? Men do some bonkers stuff through labour but offering a banana to her is a new one. First or second?
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby johnsmith » 24 Apr 2018, 21:22

CaesarAugustus wrote: given that he didn't have to do anything prior to the birth.


I'm not going to pretend I went through what my wife went through, but I got every single symptom of childbirth that my wife got. From high blood pressure, bloated belly, sore back, even the fucken hemmeroids. EVERYTHING.

And I'm reasonably fit and healthy, I haven't ever had to worry about any of that either before or since her pregnancy


having said that, I am aware it doesn't happen to most men. My point is that you are selling dads short.
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby mothra » 24 Apr 2018, 21:22

CaesarAugustus wrote:
mothra wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:That you believe that the husband is of equal importance in terms of an intimate connection with your children is frankly astounding, given that he didn't have to do anything prior to the birth.


He was right next to me for every part of it. His bond with his children started the while they were still inside of me.


Not the same, Mothra. And I think you know that.



What's sameness got to do with anything?
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Re: Time 100 list: Jacinda Ardern a 'political prodigy'

Postby mothra » 24 Apr 2018, 21:23

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote: given that he didn't have to do anything prior to the birth.


I'm not going to pretend I went through what my wife went through, but I got every single symptom of childbirth that my wife got. From high blood pressure, bloated belly, sore back, even the fucken hemmeroids. EVERYTHING.
.



Why doesn't that surprise me? :bgrin
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