Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby MilesAway » 06 Nov 2017, 17:47

Auggie wrote:Because I’m a libertarian and believe that federalism will lead to maximum freedom.

You're a tripper who believes in walking both sides of the street atvthecsame time!

Aka a feminist!
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 06 Nov 2017, 18:03

MilesAway wrote:
Auggie wrote:Because I’m a libertarian and believe that federalism will lead to maximum freedom.

You're a tripper who believes in walking both sides of the street atvthecsame time!

Aka a feminist!


That’s the smartest thing you’ve ever said!
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby MilesAway » 06 Nov 2017, 19:23

Auggie wrote:
MilesAway wrote:
Auggie wrote:Because I’m a libertarian and believe that federalism will lead to maximum freedom.

You're a tripper who believes in walking both sides of the street atvthecsame time!

Aka a feminist!


That’s the smartest thing you’ve ever said!

The condescending feminist: they can be so funny but unfortunately they never ultimately grace you their time until they are haggard from sin and begging for understanding!
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Francis » 06 Nov 2017, 21:34

BigOl64 wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:Republic first, details like States later.



More states and no republic. :bgrin :bgrin


Agreed
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby pinkeye » 06 Nov 2017, 23:58

MilesAway wrote:
Auggie wrote:
MilesAway wrote:
Auggie wrote:Because I’m a libertarian and believe that federalism will lead to maximum freedom.

You're a tripper who believes in walking both sides of the street atvthecsame time!

Aka a feminist!


That’s the smartest thing you’ve ever said!

The condescending feminist: they can be so funny but unfortunately they never ultimately grace you their time until they are haggard from sin and begging for understanding!


Oh? the pontificating male supremacist, who believes women have a place, and they should stay there and shut up. Well sorry, Doll, your wish is not my command. :B
You should understand RESPECT will get you a lot further. Of course, from your attitude, I'll assume you've had numerous bad relationships, and now you are alone, and resentful.

Well LIFE is TOUGH, especially for male supremacists who demand but don't give RESPECT. Too bad time has past you by, like so many men .. They just can't get a grip on the idea that their word is NOT LAW over any female in their vicinity any longer. You belong in the dark ages.
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby MilesAway » 07 Nov 2017, 17:03

pinkeye wrote:
MilesAway wrote:
Auggie wrote:
MilesAway wrote:
Auggie wrote:Because I’m a libertarian and believe that federalism will lead to maximum freedom.

You're a tripper who believes in walking both sides of the street atvthecsame time!

Aka a feminist!


That’s the smartest thing you’ve ever said!

The condescending feminist: they can be so funny but unfortunately they never ultimately grace you their time until they are haggard from sin and begging for understanding!


Oh? the pontificating male supremacist, who believes women have a place, and they should stay there and shut up. Well sorry, Doll, your wish is not my command. :B
You should understand RESPECT will get you a lot further. Of course, from your attitude, I'll assume you've had numerous bad relationships, and now you are alone, and resentful.

Well LIFE is TOUGH, especially for male supremacists who demand but don't give RESPECT. Too bad time has past you by, like so many men .. They just can't get a grip on the idea that their word is NOT LAW over any female in their vicinity any longer. You belong in the dark ages.

Why are you accusing me of showing no respect and not Auggie?

:huh
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 07 Nov 2017, 17:28

Miles, all I’ve said is that I support federalism, and I blame the high court for destroying our federalist structure.

I’m not sure what’s wrong with that point of view?
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Francis » 07 Nov 2017, 18:31

BigOl64 wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:Republic first, details like States later.



More states and no republic. :bgrin :bgrin


Agreed. ..and no councils.
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 07 Nov 2017, 18:44

Francis wrote:
BigOl64 wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:Republic first, details like States later.



More states and no republic. :bgrin :bgrin


Agreed. ..and no councils.


There will always been local councils. Best way is to strengthen state government so we can have less local councils.
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby johnsmith » 07 Nov 2017, 21:47

Auggie wrote:There will always been local councils.


correct. As with feds ... we're stuck with them. that's why we need to abolish states and expand councils to regions.
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby MilesAway » 07 Nov 2017, 22:07

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:There will always been local councils.


correct. As with feds ... we're stuck with them. that's why we need to abolish states and expand councils to regions.

This conversation!

:roll
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby johnsmith » 07 Nov 2017, 22:45

MilesAway wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:There will always been local councils.


correct. As with feds ... we're stuck with them. that's why we need to abolish states and expand councils to regions.

This conversation!

:roll


and round and round we go :clap :clap :clap
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 09 Nov 2017, 12:20

johnsmith wrote:
MilesAway wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:There will always been local councils.


correct. As with feds ... we're stuck with them. that's why we need to abolish states and expand councils to regions.

This conversation!

:roll


and round and round we go :clap :clap :clap


Nah, regional councils will only create a situation in which they become fiefdoms: policing, health and all important services will be concentrated in the hands of regional councils.

Look at how well municipal policing has turned out in America - rife with corruption and incompetence. We need strong States to reign in the 'fiefdoms'.

We can't have too much decentralization, and not too much centralization; we need a happy medium; and the States provide that medium.
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby johnsmith » 09 Nov 2017, 12:58

Auggie wrote:We need strong States to reign in the 'fiefdoms'.


doesn't work. All the money goes to the big cities, and no one looks after the smaller places. Look how Bigol whinges about north qld being neglected.
Especially given most of our states are bigger than most european countries. Don't look at UK, you can drive across it in less time than I drive Gold coast to Sydney. For me to drive to the top end would take me two days. It's a whole other world that the people here don't give a shit about, until they want a holiday.

you need more control in the areas being controlled . That means regions. I would look at somewhere like Italy for an example of how to run policing ... local police, which are basically glorified parking officers with a few more powers. Then carabinieri .. who are like our feds but they don't just investigate the big stuff. They can pull you over for speeding or take on international drug trafficking. There powers are wide ranging.

I've never seen our feds do anything other than man airports
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby HBS Guy » 09 Nov 2017, 13:06

And arrest Dr Haneef and raid ALP & union offices. Totally impartial is the AFP. Sure it is!
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby johnsmith » 09 Nov 2017, 13:50

HBS Guy wrote:And arrest Dr Haneef and raid ALP & union offices. Totally impartial is the AFP. Sure it is!


politicising the police has nothing to do with whether we abolish states for regions. It has to do with right wingers, and their lack of integrity, morality and ethics.
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby HBS Guy » 09 Nov 2017, 14:31

Especially since the time of the Rhodent!
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 09 Nov 2017, 15:18

Auggie wrote: All the money goes to the big cities, and no one looks after the smaller places. Look how Bigol whinges about north qld being neglected.


The reason for money going to the big cities is because the States don't have ENOUGH power. The Commonwealth is dominated by big-city interests because inner city votes are worth more on a federal scale than on a State level.

If we reduced the size of the Commonwealth, then the States would be required to look after the interests of the regions more than they are now. The issue with Nth Queensland is that the Queensland federal members and senators are dominated by the big citied interests, i.e. Brisbane. Give more power to the State Parliament and you'll find that Nth Queensland will get more of what it needs.

Auggie wrote:Especially given most of our states are bigger than most european countries. Don't look at UK, you can drive across it in less time than I drive Gold coast to Sydney. For me to drive to the top end would take me two days. It's a whole other world that the people here don't give a shit about, until they want a holiday.


But, we're sparsely-populated, that's why; and most of our territory is barren and inhabitable, not like the lush rainforests and green of Europe.

Auggie wrote:you need more control in the areas being controlled . That means regions


The issue is that essentially what will happen is that you'll get about 30-40 regions, and you'll get within those regions another 50 - 100 local councils. Meanwhile you've got Canberra having a monopoly on policy ideas. It would be a disaster. There would be no competition in ideas, and no incentive to innovate.
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 09 Nov 2017, 15:19

johnsmith wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:And arrest Dr Haneef and raid ALP & union offices. Totally impartial is the AFP. Sure it is!


politicising the police has nothing to do with whether we abolish states for regions. It has to do with right wingers, and their lack of integrity, morality and ethics.


The AFP don't do anything because policing is not a Federal power; and neither is criminal law. Policing is under the guise of the States, and that's how it should be. I think one of the benefits of having a State police force is that it's less prone to corruption, because it's harder for organized criminal gangs to influence the State apparatus, rather than a local apparatus, if you get my meaning.
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby MilesAway » 09 Nov 2017, 15:50

Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:And arrest Dr Haneef and raid ALP & union offices. Totally impartial is the AFP. Sure it is!


politicising the police has nothing to do with whether we abolish states for regions. It has to do with right wingers, and their lack of integrity, morality and ethics.


The AFP don't do anything because policing is not a Federal power; and neither is criminal law. Policing is under the guise of the States, and that's how it should be. I think one of the benefits of having a State police force is that it's less prone to corruption, because it's harder for organized criminal gangs to influence the State apparatus, rather than a local apparatus, if you get my meaning.

Not quite!
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 09 Nov 2017, 15:58

MilesAway wrote:
Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:And arrest Dr Haneef and raid ALP & union offices. Totally impartial is the AFP. Sure it is!


politicising the police has nothing to do with whether we abolish states for regions. It has to do with right wingers, and their lack of integrity, morality and ethics.


The AFP don't do anything because policing is not a Federal power; and neither is criminal law. Policing is under the guise of the States, and that's how it should be. I think one of the benefits of having a State police force is that it's less prone to corruption, because it's harder for organized criminal gangs to influence the State apparatus, rather than a local apparatus, if you get my meaning.

Not quite!


Do you care to give a reason for that statement? Or will you just shout single syllable words?
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby johnsmith » 09 Nov 2017, 18:00

Auggie wrote:The reason for money going to the big cities is because the States don't have ENOUGH power. The Commonwealth is dominated by big-city interests because inner city votes are worth more on a federal scale than on a State level.



and the states and the state politicians are dominated by? ................ Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne etc etc

they don't have a choice. The party does whatever earns them the most votes. That means that while the MP in for example Hinchinbrook might makes all the right noises in front of the tv cameras, ultimately behind closed doors he's going to do and agree with whatever is most likely to get his party elected the next time around. Does the state party put his constituents needs first, and win maybe 5000 votes , or do they do what the population centers want, and win millions of votes for the party ?
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 09 Nov 2017, 19:23

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:The reason for money going to the big cities is because the States don't have ENOUGH power. The Commonwealth is dominated by big-city interests because inner city votes are worth more on a federal scale than on a State level.



and the states and the state politicians are dominated by? ................ Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne etc etc

they don't have a choice. The party does whatever earns them the most votes. That means that while the MP in for example Hinchinbrook might makes all the right noises in front of the tv cameras, ultimately behind closed doors he's going to do and agree with whatever is most likely to get his party elected the next time around. Does the state party put his constituents needs first, and win maybe 5000 votes , or do they do what the population centers want, and win millions of votes for the party ?


Sure thats always going to be case anyway, whether we have states or not. But it could happen less so if we strengthen federalism. For eg, in Canada the provincial parties are quite divorced from the federal party; that’s because Canada is quite decentralised. We should consider adopting similar reforms.

The other issue is that Queensland doesn’t have a regional upper house like vic and wa. SA and nsw have upper houses, but they don’t represent regions. Having a regional upper house would give more power to rurals areas. You could even implement a system where the local councils elect representives to the upper houses like they do in India.
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby johnsmith » 09 Nov 2017, 23:30

Auggie wrote:Sure thats always going to be case anyway, whether we have states or not. But it could happen less so if we strengthen federalism.


we've had federalism for a hundred years and it hasn't happened yet. Wishful thinking on your part.

It will happen less with regional and fed. Get rid of the states. Feds take care of the big stuff, regions everything else. Put the 2nd tier govt in with the people that they are governing. It's the only way to make them more accountable. Having someone 2000km away decide for you on local issues doesn't work.
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Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 10 Nov 2017, 06:21

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:Sure thats always going to be case anyway, whether we have states or not. But it could happen less so if we strengthen federalism.


we've had federalism for a hundred years and it hasn't happened yet. Wishful thinking on your part.

It will happen less with regional and fed. Get rid of the states. Feds take care of the big stuff, regions everything else. Put the 2nd tier govt in with the people that they are governing. It's the only way to make them more accountable. Having someone 2000km away decide for you on local issues doesn't work.


Incorrect, for most of the 100 years we haven’t had a strong federal state but a centralised one. The states haven’t been able to collect income taxes since 1942.
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