Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Discuss politics and current affairs here.

Hot topic: The scourge of negative gearing, Friends of the NBN and wrecking lives.  The economy and Poll tracking— all the polls. New! ELECTION 2016, Issues and Leaders

Special Feature 1: Peter Costello and our current deficits.
Special Feature 2: Dr Turnbull and the wrong NBN prescription
Special Feature 3: The Denigration of science, technology and education.
.
Forum rules
The rules for this board are in the Charter of Moderation. Politics is for serious discussion of politics, economics and current affairs.

Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 03 Nov 2017, 13:48

If we were to abolish to States, with what would we replace them?

My idea is the following (but is by no means my own idea):

We would divide Australia into Regions.

1) Each metropolitan area of major cities, such as: Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide, Hobart and Darwin would be one single Region.

2) Any other metropolitan areas of smaller cities would be one Region.

3) All other parts of Australia would be divided into Regions, but there shall not be less than 750,000 people in each Region, and not more than 2 million.
----
Each Region shall have a Government, to consist of a Governor, and a Regional Council (modelled on local councils now). The Governor would be elected directly by the people.

Regional Councils would have all powers that local governments currently have, plus such more powers as determined by the Parliament (known as devolution).
-----
Changes to the Senate would be required:

Instead of each State, the country would be divided into districts, each one to return not less than three senators each, who shall be chosen by the people directly. These districts would be larger than the House of Reps districts. Each district would be equal in size, much like House of Reps districts.
-----
The Federal Parliament would have power to make laws concerning any matter; but there would be a Bill of Rights to protect the people from centralized government.
------
The biggest issue with this model is that the regions might be too big, especially in rural areas; and/or there may be a tendency to have a third tier of government, in which case we might as well just retain the existing model.
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Auggie
Red Czar
 
Posts: 337
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby HBS Guy » 03 Nov 2017, 14:12

This is secondary. Urgent task is to create the Republic of Australia.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 41781
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby MilesAway » 03 Nov 2017, 14:48

Neither is important!
User avatar
MilesAway
Feral cat
 
Posts: 239
Joined: 27 Oct 2017, 12:01
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 03 Nov 2017, 15:32

MilesAway wrote:Neither is important!


So, you support the States?

I do too, but I see the argument to abolish the States. Federalism is no longer appropriate in a globalized world, and I believe that Australians identity more with a unitary state, than a nation of States.

If we had regional councils, we would essentially have two tiers of government: provided we did it properly. That would save on costs, and administration. Also, it would end the blame game between the States and Canberra: the latter would be solely responsible, but could also devolve certain of its powers to the regions according to the changing needs of society.
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Auggie
Red Czar
 
Posts: 337
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 03 Nov 2017, 15:32

HBS Guy wrote:This is secondary. Urgent task is to create the Republic of Australia.


I want to know what you think about the specifics. Do you support them?
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Auggie
Red Czar
 
Posts: 337
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby HBS Guy » 03 Nov 2017, 15:34

We could do with less politicians—in the Republic!
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 41781
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 03 Nov 2017, 17:17

HBS Guy wrote:We could do with less politicians—in the Republic!


Wouldn’t you rather reduce tilde size of government?
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Auggie
Red Czar
 
Posts: 337
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby HBS Guy » 03 Nov 2017, 17:28

Republic first, details like States later.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 41781
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 03 Nov 2017, 18:28

Nah, we should keep the states.

Return NT to SA to whom it belonged originally.
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Auggie
Red Czar
 
Posts: 337
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby HBS Guy » 03 Nov 2017, 18:53

Nah, too many bloody politicians!

If abolish states, regional government must have like 500,000 people in it!
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 41781
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 03 Nov 2017, 23:09

HBS Guy wrote:Nah, too many bloody politicians!

If abolish states, regional government must have like 500,000 people in it!


True about big regional government.

In fact, having the States means fewer politicians overall. If you have regional councils you will have regional councils but also local councils within those regions (because of Australia's size), ending up with even more politicians.
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Auggie
Red Czar
 
Posts: 337
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby pinkeye » 04 Nov 2017, 00:05

Auggie wrote:
MilesAway wrote:Neither is important!


So, you support the States?

I do too, but I see the argument to abolish the States. Federalism is no longer appropriate in a globalized world, and I believe that Australians identity more with a unitary state, than a nation of States.

If we had regional councils, we would essentially have two tiers of government: provided we did it properly. That would save on costs, and administration. Also, it would end the blame game between the States and Canberra: the latter would be solely responsible, but could also devolve certain of its powers to the regions according to the changing needs of society.



EEK. ? My view on that is it sounds awfully, umm, Chinese in doctrine.

If we are after freedom, we could abolish the central government and allow the states to run their own affairs, including interstate trade etc. A bit like breaking Australia UP, into smaller countries. Of course.. that leaves the issue of 'security'. The risks posed by the WORLD around us.
That doesn't seem like such a good idea, as there would still need to be a central military sector to manage our WARS. And possible THREATS.

That would create an elite military that would essentially do what it liked. :roll

So essentially, I think I have come around to thinking the system of the three tiers of govt works pretty well. It could definitely be made to work more efficiently, no question. I think even as a Republic, which it appears AustraliaMUST inevitably become, we will retain the system, essentially the same.
Only the names will really change. :))
sleep is bliss: do it as often and for as long as you need.
pinkeye
Feral cat
 
Posts: 220
Joined: 01 Oct 2017, 21:59
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby BigOl64 » 05 Nov 2017, 11:42

HBS Guy wrote:Republic first, details like States later.



More states and no republic. :bgrin :bgrin
User avatar
BigOl64
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 181
Joined: 29 Sep 2017, 11:35
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby johnsmith » 05 Nov 2017, 12:14

Auggie wrote:My idea is the following (but is by no means my own idea):

We would divide Australia into Regions.

1) Each metropolitan area of major cities, such as: Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide, Hobart and Darwin would be one single Region.

2) Any other metropolitan areas of smaller cities would be one Region.

3) All other parts of Australia would be divided into Regions, but there shall not be less than 750,000 people in each Region, and not more than 2 million.
----
Each Region shall have a Government, to consist of a Governor, and a Regional Council (modelled on local councils now). The Governor would be elected directly by the people.


I would instead base each region on it's population. That way each representative (or mayor) represents an equal number of people.
User avatar
johnsmith
mountain lion
 
Posts: 706
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Nov 2017, 12:35

Would regions follow the old State boundaries?

How would the GST split up work? Most GST paid is in the capital cities.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 41781
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby johnsmith » 05 Nov 2017, 12:52

HBS Guy wrote:Would regions follow the old State boundaries?

How would the GST split up work? Most GST paid is in the capital cities.



I wouldn't suggest following state boundaries. I would look at regions such as Illawarra, Southern Highlands, macarthur, Sunshine coast, Gold Coast, Logan etc etc .... with each region representing for example 1 million people.

If each area represents an equal number of people, then the GST would be shared equally amongst all regions.
User avatar
johnsmith
mountain lion
 
Posts: 706
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Nov 2017, 13:39

That would make SA two regions just about.

Thinking more
Adelaide incl Adelaide Hills, South Coast
South East incl Green Triangle
Riverland
Lower and Mid North
Eyre & York Peninsulas

Tassie would be one region just about, or make it smaller regions with more GST remitted to them.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 41781
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Nov 2017, 13:47

Might be easier to make a few more states?

Northern Australia: FNQ across the NT to northern WA (good luck getting that one through!)
Rest of NT can be given to SA. Create a New England State from northern NSW.

Tassie: give it to Victoria. That’ll go down well :rofl :rofl :rofl
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 41781
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby johnsmith » 05 Nov 2017, 13:48

HBS Guy wrote:That would make SA two regions just about.

Thinking more
Adelaide incl Adelaide Hills, South Coast
South East incl Green Triangle
Riverland
Lower and Mid North
Eyre & York Peninsulas

Tassie would be one region just about, or make it smaller regions with more GST remitted to them.



My 1m number is just an example. The actual numbers would need to be worked out
User avatar
johnsmith
mountain lion
 
Posts: 706
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Nov 2017, 13:49

Yeah, be more like Adelaide, East SA, West SA.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 41781
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 06 Nov 2017, 13:12

pinkeye wrote:
Auggie wrote:
MilesAway wrote:Neither is important!


So, you support the States?

I do too, but I see the argument to abolish the States. Federalism is no longer appropriate in a globalized world, and I believe that Australians identity more with a unitary state, than a nation of States.

If we had regional councils, we would essentially have two tiers of government: provided we did it properly. That would save on costs, and administration. Also, it would end the blame game between the States and Canberra: the latter would be solely responsible, but could also devolve certain of its powers to the regions according to the changing needs of society.



EEK. ? My view on that is it sounds awfully, umm, Chinese in doctrine.

If we are after freedom, we could abolish the central government and allow the states to run their own affairs, including interstate trade etc. A bit like breaking Australia UP, into smaller countries. Of course.. that leaves the issue of 'security'. The risks posed by the WORLD around us.
That doesn't seem like such a good idea, as there would still need to be a central military sector to manage our WARS. And possible THREATS.

That would create an elite military that would essentially do what it liked. :roll

So essentially, I think I have come around to thinking the system of the three tiers of govt works pretty well. It could definitely be made to work more efficiently, no question. I think even as a Republic, which it appears AustraliaMUST inevitably become, we will retain the system, essentially the same.
Only the names will really change. :))


Well said. Australia's size and distance means that a regional-based system would ultimately end up costing more. The problem is that we need to give more power to the States and not to the Commonwealth.
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Auggie
Red Czar
 
Posts: 337
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby MilesAway » 06 Nov 2017, 15:19

Auggie wrote:
pinkeye wrote:
Auggie wrote:
MilesAway wrote:Neither is important!


So, you support the States?

I do too, but I see the argument to abolish the States. Federalism is no longer appropriate in a globalized world, and I believe that Australians identity more with a unitary state, than a nation of States.

If we had regional councils, we would essentially have two tiers of government: provided we did it properly. That would save on costs, and administration. Also, it would end the blame game between the States and Canberra: the latter would be solely responsible, but could also devolve certain of its powers to the regions according to the changing needs of society.



EEK. ? My view on that is it sounds awfully, umm, Chinese in doctrine.

If we are after freedom, we could abolish the central government and allow the states to run their own affairs, including interstate trade etc. A bit like breaking Australia UP, into smaller countries. Of course.. that leaves the issue of 'security'. The risks posed by the WORLD around us.
That doesn't seem like such a good idea, as there would still need to be a central military sector to manage our WARS. And possible THREATS.

That would create an elite military that would essentially do what it liked. :roll

So essentially, I think I have come around to thinking the system of the three tiers of govt works pretty well. It could definitely be made to work more efficiently, no question. I think even as a Republic, which it appears AustraliaMUST inevitably become, we will retain the system, essentially the same.
Only the names will really change. :))


Well said. Australia's size and distance means that a regional-based system would ultimately end up costing more. The problem is that we need to give more power to the States and not to the Commonwealth.

Back to square one: why?
User avatar
MilesAway
Feral cat
 
Posts: 239
Joined: 27 Oct 2017, 12:01
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 06 Nov 2017, 15:41

MilesAway wrote:
Auggie wrote:
pinkeye wrote:
Auggie wrote:
MilesAway wrote:Neither is important!


So, you support the States?

I do too, but I see the argument to abolish the States. Federalism is no longer appropriate in a globalized world, and I believe that Australians identity more with a unitary state, than a nation of States.

If we had regional councils, we would essentially have two tiers of government: provided we did it properly. That would save on costs, and administration. Also, it would end the blame game between the States and Canberra: the latter would be solely responsible, but could also devolve certain of its powers to the regions according to the changing needs of society.



EEK. ? My view on that is it sounds awfully, umm, Chinese in doctrine.

If we are after freedom, we could abolish the central government and allow the states to run their own affairs, including interstate trade etc. A bit like breaking Australia UP, into smaller countries. Of course.. that leaves the issue of 'security'. The risks posed by the WORLD around us.
That doesn't seem like such a good idea, as there would still need to be a central military sector to manage our WARS. And possible THREATS.

That would create an elite military that would essentially do what it liked. :roll

So essentially, I think I have come around to thinking the system of the three tiers of govt works pretty well. It could definitely be made to work more efficiently, no question. I think even as a Republic, which it appears AustraliaMUST inevitably become, we will retain the system, essentially the same.
Only the names will really change. :))


Well said. Australia's size and distance means that a regional-based system would ultimately end up costing more. The problem is that we need to give more power to the States and not to the Commonwealth.

Back to square one: why?


Not at all back to square one. We still have much work to do in reducing the size of the Federal Government, and returning to the States their rightful powers.
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Auggie
Red Czar
 
Posts: 337
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby MilesAway » 06 Nov 2017, 16:35

Auggie wrote:
MilesAway wrote:
Auggie wrote:
pinkeye wrote:
Auggie wrote:
MilesAway wrote:Neither is important!


So, you support the States?

I do too, but I see the argument to abolish the States. Federalism is no longer appropriate in a globalized world, and I believe that Australians identity more with a unitary state, than a nation of States.

If we had regional councils, we would essentially have two tiers of government: provided we did it properly. That would save on costs, and administration. Also, it would end the blame game between the States and Canberra: the latter would be solely responsible, but could also devolve certain of its powers to the regions according to the changing needs of society.



EEK. ? My view on that is it sounds awfully, umm, Chinese in doctrine.

If we are after freedom, we could abolish the central government and allow the states to run their own affairs, including interstate trade etc. A bit like breaking Australia UP, into smaller countries. Of course.. that leaves the issue of 'security'. The risks posed by the WORLD around us.
That doesn't seem like such a good idea, as there would still need to be a central military sector to manage our WARS. And possible THREATS.

That would create an elite military that would essentially do what it liked. :roll

So essentially, I think I have come around to thinking the system of the three tiers of govt works pretty well. It could definitely be made to work more efficiently, no question. I think even as a Republic, which it appears AustraliaMUST inevitably become, we will retain the system, essentially the same.
Only the names will really change. :))


Well said. Australia's size and distance means that a regional-based system would ultimately end up costing more. The problem is that we need to give more power to the States and not to the Commonwealth.

Back to square one: why?


Not at all back to square one. We still have much work to do in reducing the size of the Federal Government, and returning to the States their rightful powers.

Why?

Because you say so..... :WTF
User avatar
MilesAway
Feral cat
 
Posts: 239
Joined: 27 Oct 2017, 12:01
spamone: Animal

Re: Abolish the States, and replace it with what?

Postby Auggie » 06 Nov 2017, 17:14

Because I’m a libertarian and believe that federalism will lead to maximum freedom.
"Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Auggie
Red Czar
 
Posts: 337
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Next

Return to Politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest