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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 11 Oct 2017, 21:34

HBS Guy wrote:I doubt we share many values with India or Pakistan etc. I don’t rate the Commonwealth highly but the more places/combinations can talk instead of shoot is always good.


In many ways we do. They have the Westminister system of Government, common law, and similar institutions. Their nationhood is a result of Britain. Pakistan wouldn't have been a nation without Britain.

Don't forget that one day India will be the most powerful in the country in world. The term President will no longer be the most powerful. It will be the Prime Minister of India.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby HBS Guy » 11 Oct 2017, 21:46

Yeah, on a superficial level we might but a peasant in a rice paddy or squalid back alley in India doesn’t share much with us. Radically different religious backgrounds for one, living standards, level of technology, education yadda yadda.

I am for the Commonwealth just don’t think it has all that much to offer. Like the UN but less so.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby Cherie » 11 Oct 2017, 21:49

CaesarAugustus wrote:
Aussie wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
Aussie wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:Yeah, so being actually free of the last vestiges of English rule of our land is powerful and important symbolism, to us and to our neighbors and trading partners.

Might be a way to get this to stop being such a pissant little country too.


What's made us a pissant country is that we have moved away from Britain, and tried to assert our independent. If we integrate further into the Commonwealth Realm, then we'll no longer be a pissant country.


Caesar....how does one integrate further into a diminishing environment and achieve much, if anything?


Because we'd be part of global community that shares similar values to us. We're not big enough to go at it on our own, we'll always rely on America regardless.


We were and are.....the Commonwealth....erstwhile the Empire. It is diminishing. We can still be a Republic and retain the political, commercial, trading, social, collegiate and even military alliance with the UK.


It's different. Symbolism is important. Having the Monarchy and the Union Jack are symbols that indicate our nationhood.

I know you and I disagree on this issue. Let's agree to disagree. It's ultimately personal. I feel an affiliation for Britain, and consider myself to be pseudo-British. You feel strongly Australian and identify Australia as its own nation.

From a practical perspective, I think the majority of Australians support the status quo.

the majority support a monarchy
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby Aussie » 11 Oct 2017, 22:12

Link, Agnes?
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 11 Oct 2017, 23:58

HBS Guy wrote:Yeah, on a superficial level we might but a peasant in a rice paddy or squalid back alley in India doesn’t share much with us. Radically different religious backgrounds for one, living standards, level of technology, education yadda yadda.

I am for the Commonwealth just don’t think it has all that much to offer. Like the UN but less so.


India's going to be a superpower one day. They'll take on the baton from the British Empire.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 11 Oct 2017, 23:59

Aussie wrote:Link, Agnes?


BTW, like your 'Hero of the Soviet Union'.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby Aussie » 12 Oct 2017, 00:17

CaesarAugustus wrote:
Aussie wrote:Link, Agnes?


BTW, like your 'Hero of the Soviet Union'.


Not my doing. I think that is Monk being a smart arse with the post count rankings.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby HBS Guy » 12 Oct 2017, 00:26

No, I created a special rank for Aussie, think he said something about all the work he did here or something so thought the HofSU was appropriate, kinda. (My memory is not usually this bad, have been a bit crook.)
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 13 Oct 2017, 15:27

I think a lot of Australians could cotton on to the idea of an American-style republic, particularly if we presented an elected Head of State. I think that, provided we have suitable checks and balances, a 'separation of powers' system could work.

Although I don't think the electoral college would be accepted by the people, despite the fact that it's a fairer system.

At the State level, however, the State Presidents could be elected by directly the people of the States (i.e. one man, one vote) if they like. The separation of powers is more important at the Federal level than on the State level.

P.S. I wouldn't call the State executives Governors - Governors are typically 'appointed' by the centralised authority. In short, Governors are appointed, Presidents are elected. Therefore, each State would have 'the President of Queensland' or the 'State President for Queensland'. The President of Australia would be known as the Federal President.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby johnsmith » 13 Oct 2017, 15:52

CaesarAugustus wrote:I think a lot of Australians could cotton on to the idea of an American-style republic,


I think it's one of the worst examples currently going around. There is no democracy in the USA
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby HBS Guy » 13 Oct 2017, 15:53

No, governors are fine.

An American system with Pres as head of the executive is too big a change.

If you want to make that big a change you need to justify it which, IMO, you have not done.

My idea of an Australian Monarchy has also not been adequately discussed—would be a preface to the Australian Republic.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 13 Oct 2017, 16:02

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:I think a lot of Australians could cotton on to the idea of an American-style republic,


I think it's one of the worst examples currently going around. There is no democracy in the USA


Only because the system is full of flaws. I believe I have fixed these.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 13 Oct 2017, 16:06

HBS Guy wrote:No, governors are fine.

An American system with Pres as head of the executive is too big a change.

If you want to make that big a change you need to justify it which, IMO, you have not done.

My idea of an Australian Monarchy has also not been adequately discussed—would be a preface to the Australian Republic.


The presidential system has several benefits: 1) the president doesn't have to deal with a collective body to make decisions, therefore resulting in more decisiveness; 2) the president can make external appointments, which allows him to appoint competent people; 3) the president can better represent the people since his confidence is directly dependent on the people and not on any party or the House.

Regarding an Australian monarchy, I don't think it would be approved at all.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 13 Oct 2017, 16:07

HBS Guy wrote:No, governors are fine.

An American system with Pres as head of the executive is too big a change.

If you want to make that big a change you need to justify it which, IMO, you have not done.

My idea of an Australian Monarchy has also not been adequately discussed—would be a preface to the Australian Republic.


Second, Governor indicates subordination to the centra authority, which as a federalist I believe is wrong. In a federation, the states delgate powers to the central authority, not the other way around.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby HBS Guy » 13 Oct 2017, 16:08

Point 2 I like, bring in expert outsiders into Cabinet.

Point 3—just means Pres is elected.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 13 Oct 2017, 16:12

HBS Guy wrote:Point 2 I like, bring in expert outsiders into Cabinet.

Point 3—just means Pres is elected.


Yes but also, the president has real power to shape an agenda. If we adopt a minimalist system, then the president has no power to guide the agenda or develop policy.

If you were elected for 6 years and were not re-eligible, wouldn't you have less anxiety over developing your agenda?
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby HBS Guy » 13 Oct 2017, 16:18

No, don’t want US system!

What if the {elected GG/Prez} could appoint two Ministers with special skills from outside Parliament. The PM would have to accept them. They would then be MPs so they can be questioned.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby HBS Guy » 13 Oct 2017, 16:21

Do you have a draught of your proposed system? Can you post a link to it?
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 13 Oct 2017, 16:22

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:I think a lot of Australians could cotton on to the idea of an American-style republic,


I think it's one of the worst examples currently going around. There is no democracy in the USA


Think of government as a machine with several a parts and pieces that make it work. These parts all work together to contribute to the overall functioning of the machine. If the parts are well designed and then the machine works well. If you change a part, then the whole machine could change, either for the best or for the worst.

The machine developed by the founding fathers was a prototype. It required more amendments and inclusions to make the machine better, but unfortunately it hasn't received sufficient maintenance and it's broken.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 13 Oct 2017, 16:24

HBS Guy wrote:Do you have a draught of your proposed system? Can you post a link to it?


What do you mean by draft? The OP covers a run down of the basics. If you have any specific questions I'm happy to go into further detail.
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby HBS Guy » 13 Oct 2017, 16:28

OK, will reread all this. Maybe on Sunday.

Have a wedding to go to tomorrow that I don’t really want to go to, still not fully recovered from the inner ear problem, still deaf in left ear. Does your OP specify the safeguards you say you put in?
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 13 Oct 2017, 16:54

HBS Guy wrote:OK, will reread all this. Maybe on Sunday.

Have a wedding to go to tomorrow that I don’t really want to go to, still not fully recovered from the inner ear problem, still deaf in left ear. Does your OP specify the safeguards you say you put in?


Yes
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby CaesarAugustus » 13 Oct 2017, 17:12

Aussie Hero, perhaps you could go over it in detail?
Or perhaps you're already well versed in the matter?
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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby Aussie » 13 Oct 2017, 17:37

CaesarAugustus wrote:Aussie Hero, perhaps you could go over it in detail?
Or perhaps you're already well versed in the matter?


Just checking in the very unlikely event.....you referring to me?

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Re: New Australian Republic

Postby HBS Guy » 13 Oct 2017, 17:44

YOu are the Hero Of the Soviet Union, Aussie :jump
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