Civil Conscription

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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby mothra » 04 Feb 2018, 10:17

Lefty wrote:
mothra wrote:
BigOl64 wrote:

That was a conservative estimate of cost, not salary genius.


Baby sitting someone at home require vastly less people than baby sitting some one in a workplace. Therefore vastly less costs


It's like you yourself have never had a job and are clueless to what happens in a workplace. But you know prolly know everything there is to know about fucken welfare, don't you?


As for my job yep still making a motsa, thanks for asking, prolly keeping you and your lefty free loading mates in welfare payments for a few years now.



You specialise in absolutely no idea at all, don't you.


Good call :bgrin

But I do think there's a chance he can be saved if only he has the volition to educate himself a little on this subject.

Though I won't hold my breath.


Yeah, but he seriously needs to stop being so damn angry all the time.

Aside form it being a significant roadbloack, it's clearly making him very unhappy.

He is, agreed, not a complete idiot. But he does practice particularly hard at the sport.
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby Lefty » 04 Feb 2018, 10:35

Here's some education for BigOl - it's aimed more at children but he shouldn't let that put him off.

100 dogs and 94 bones

This parable examines unemployment under the current neo-liberal system and explains the simple facts - the system ensures that there are less jobs than jobseekers and no amount of training or motivation will magically allow them to step into jobs that don't exist. Government intervention is necessary.

It's very simple, early primary school math - that's the reality.
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby BigOl64 » 04 Feb 2018, 10:59

Lefty wrote:Here's some education for BigOl - it's aimed more at children but he shouldn't let that put him off.

100 dogs and 94 bones

This parable examines unemployment under the current neo-liberal system and explains the simple facts - the system ensures that there are less jobs than jobseekers and no amount of training or motivation will magically allow them to step into jobs that don't exist. Government intervention is necessary.

It's very simple, early primary school math - that's the reality.



Exactly totally agree, at least 4% of the population is totally unemployable and NOTHING will help them get a job. So why even bother?


Leave them on the dole and forget about them, they will never do anything themselves and anything done to help them is a total waste of time.
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby BigOl64 » 04 Feb 2018, 11:01

mothra wrote:
Lefty wrote:
mothra wrote:
BigOl64 wrote:

That was a conservative estimate of cost, not salary genius.


Baby sitting someone at home require vastly less people than baby sitting some one in a workplace. Therefore vastly less costs


It's like you yourself have never had a job and are clueless to what happens in a workplace. But you know prolly know everything there is to know about fucken welfare, don't you?


As for my job yep still making a motsa, thanks for asking, prolly keeping you and your lefty free loading mates in welfare payments for a few years now.



You specialise in absolutely no idea at all, don't you.


Good call :bgrin

But I do think there's a chance he can be saved if only he has the volition to educate himself a little on this subject.

Though I won't hold my breath.


Yeah, but he seriously needs to stop being so damn angry all the time.

Aside form it being a significant roadbloack, it's clearly making him very unhappy.

He is, agreed, not a complete idiot. But he does practice particularly hard at the sport.



Hows about you shut your cunthole and speak to me only when spoken to.
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby BigOl64 » 04 Feb 2018, 11:04

Lefty wrote:
That was a conservative estimate of cost, not salary genius.


Nice try :roll

Baby sitting someone at home require vastly less people than baby sitting some one in a workplace. Therefore vastly less costs


No, it requires a virtual army of heavily privately-owned but government-funded "unemployment industries" to manage the welfare dependent pool that arises as an outcome of governments choice to abandon employment creation when the private market fails to fully utilise all available labour - which is nearly always, to varying degrees depending on broad economic conditions.

And yet even after "baby sitting someone at home", you haven't solved the basic problem - they are still unemployed. Do you prefer that we continue to pay them a poverty-level wage to do nothing at home rather than pay them a basic, minimum living wage in order to engage in some productive work, however humble that may be?

Understand the choices here? Either pay them a government-funded, poverty-level allowance to do nothing while having them overseen by a largely privatised bureaucracy designed to cater for (and profit from) the results of a permanent pool of unemployment - which is what we do currently - or re-direct that spending to allow them to engage with society through paid employment at the minimum wage and conditions set down by law.

Both approaches cost public money but one puts people to work while the other entrenches unemployment - I'd like to hear a good argument as to why returning the nation to full employment is a bad idea (I don't consider "having zero unemployment would make unions stronger" to be a good argument against).

It's like you yourself have never had a job and are clueless to what happens in a workplace.


No, been fully employed for the past 21 years and on and off during the bad economic years before that.

But you know prolly know everything there is to know about fucken welfare, don't you?


Certainly not everything. I experienced it first-hand when I when I walked out of high school and straight into the 1990 recession - Australia's worst economic downturn since the Great Depression of the 1930's. I recall the endless training schemes to prepare us for jobs that did not exist at the time, jumping through hoops etc. I recall one such session where a professional woman hired by the government to motivate us admitted to the "class" : "Yes, these are economically hard times - there is currently one job available for every 400 applicants". She then went on to tell us - in the nicest possible terms - that unemployment was all down to our attitude, essentially all our own fault. The hypocrisy and double-think were astounding!!!! I now wonder how much public money she was being paid to regurgitate this tripe and why it was not used to just directly employ a couple of us.

Eventually, the economic cycle turned and permanent, full-time jobs became available (I had a string of temporary, casual jobs on and off over those years but nothing you could build a start on) . But I haven't forgotten and my experiences motivated me to understand the system (Professor Bill Mitchell is a great teacher). So I think I do have a basic understanding of what makes it tick.

As for my job yep still making a motsa,


Excellent! Just remember to spare a thought for the rest of Australia who are being harmed by that industry (but that isn't your fault so you're off the hook) and for those at the bottom of the heap who by design of the system are the sacrificial lambs for a very shitty politico-economic ideal.



So when I say the cost, you think it means only salary do you, not the total cost of employing someone? No wonder everyone who isn't fucken retard socialist thinks you're moron.


The mining and the resources industry is what is helping retards like you from starving to death, just say thank you and sit back down.
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby mothra » 04 Feb 2018, 11:36

BigOl64 wrote:
Hows about you shut your cunthole and speak to me only when spoken to.




No. I don't think so.

Would you like to laugh some more about me being pack-raped?

That is, after all, the kind of guy you are, yes?

Chickenshit potato peeler who got minimum wage from the defence forces because you couldn't cut it elsewhere and thinks they now deserve to march on ANZAC day as an actual member?

You're a joke. All puff.
Last edited by mothra on 04 Feb 2018, 12:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby HBS Guy » 04 Feb 2018, 11:40

BigOl64 wrote:
mothra wrote:
Lefty wrote:
mothra wrote:
BigOl64 wrote:

That was a conservative estimate of cost, not salary genius.


Baby sitting someone at home require vastly less people than baby sitting some one in a workplace. Therefore vastly less costs


It's like you yourself have never had a job and are clueless to what happens in a workplace. But you know prolly know everything there is to know about fucken welfare, don't you?


As for my job yep still making a motsa, thanks for asking, prolly keeping you and your lefty free loading mates in welfare payments for a few years now.



You specialise in absolutely no idea at all, don't you.


Good call :bgrin

But I do think there's a chance he can be saved if only he has the volition to educate himself a little on this subject.

Though I won't hold my breath.


Yeah, but he seriously needs to stop being so damn angry all the time.

Aside form it being a significant roadbloack, it's clearly making him very unhappy.

He is, agreed, not a complete idiot. But he does practice particularly hard at the sport.



Hows about you shut your cunthole and speak to me only when spoken to.

How about you cultivate the minimum of manners! We do not discourage debate here!
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby johnsmith » 04 Feb 2018, 13:58

Lefty wrote:I recall one such session where a professional woman hired by the government to motivate us admitted to the "class" : "


i recall doing two of those courses ..... what an absolute fucken waste of time and money
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby johnsmith » 04 Feb 2018, 14:01

take it easy on bigol guys .... its the heat up there that makes his so grumpy, it also slows down his ability to think.

As a result his mouth continually moves while the brain is still waiting for things to cool down
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby mothra » 04 Feb 2018, 14:30

johnsmith wrote:take it easy on bigol guys .... its the heat up there that makes his so grumpy, it also slows down his ability to think.

As a result his mouth continually moves while the brain is still waiting for things to cool down



He does come across as delicate.

Was there a boy scout badge for noble chins in Qld?
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby johnsmith » 04 Feb 2018, 16:21

mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:take it easy on bigol guys .... its the heat up there that makes his so grumpy, it also slows down his ability to think.

As a result his mouth continually moves while the brain is still waiting for things to cool down



He does come across as delicate.

Was there a boy scout badge for noble chins in Qld?


i never did scouts. Sorry.
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby johnsmith » 04 Feb 2018, 16:29

interesting article, even if it is a couple of years old

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/careers/investigation-exposes-fraud-within-taxpayer-funded-jobs-services-australia/news-story/9d5d9181be2bac46efd4c1857ac092a2

and unemployment benefits make up the smallest amount of the 'welfare' budget
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby mothra » 04 Feb 2018, 16:34

johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:take it easy on bigol guys .... its the heat up there that makes his so grumpy, it also slows down his ability to think.

As a result his mouth continually moves while the brain is still waiting for things to cool down



He does come across as delicate.

Was there a boy scout badge for noble chins in Qld?


i never did scouts. Sorry.



I did Brownies. I'm sure i got a badge for being brave.

Do you think Bigol would like to borrow it?
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby johnsmith » 04 Feb 2018, 17:45

mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:take it easy on bigol guys .... its the heat up there that makes his so grumpy, it also slows down his ability to think.

As a result his mouth continually moves while the brain is still waiting for things to cool down



He does come across as delicate.

Was there a boy scout badge for noble chins in Qld?


i never did scouts. Sorry.



I did Brownies. I'm sure i got a badge for being brave.

Do you think Bigol would like to borrow it?


I reckon he'd be worried he'd prick himself
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby mothra » 04 Feb 2018, 18:10

johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:take it easy on bigol guys .... its the heat up there that makes his so grumpy, it also slows down his ability to think.

As a result his mouth continually moves while the brain is still waiting for things to cool down



He does come across as delicate.

Was there a boy scout badge for noble chins in Qld?


i never did scouts. Sorry.



I did Brownies. I'm sure i got a badge for being brave.

Do you think Bigol would like to borrow it?


I reckon he'd be worried he'd prick himself



Mum sews it on for you.

Do you think Bigol is sweet to his mum?
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby BigOl64 » 04 Feb 2018, 19:16

mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:take it easy on bigol guys .... its the heat up there that makes his so grumpy, it also slows down his ability to think.

As a result his mouth continually moves while the brain is still waiting for things to cool down



He does come across as delicate.

Was there a boy scout badge for noble chins in Qld?


i never did scouts. Sorry.



I did Brownies. I'm sure i got a badge for being brave.

Do you think Bigol would like to borrow it?



Like I would give a fuck what a useless cunt like you would do.


You could be dead and rotting in the street and no-one would care
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby BigOl64 » 04 Feb 2018, 19:21

HBS Guy wrote:
BigOl64 wrote:
mothra wrote:
Lefty wrote:
mothra wrote:
BigOl64 wrote:

That was a conservative estimate of cost, not salary genius.


Baby sitting someone at home require vastly less people than baby sitting some one in a workplace. Therefore vastly less costs


It's like you yourself have never had a job and are clueless to what happens in a workplace. But you know prolly know everything there is to know about fucken welfare, don't you?


As for my job yep still making a motsa, thanks for asking, prolly keeping you and your lefty free loading mates in welfare payments for a few years now.



You specialise in absolutely no idea at all, don't you.


Good call :bgrin

But I do think there's a chance he can be saved if only he has the volition to educate himself a little on this subject.

Though I won't hold my breath.


Yeah, but he seriously needs to stop being so damn angry all the time.

Aside form it being a significant roadbloack, it's clearly making him very unhappy.

He is, agreed, not a complete idiot. But he does practice particularly hard at the sport.



Hows about you shut your cunthole and speak to me only when spoken to.

How about you cultivate the minimum of manners! We do not discourage debate here!



Hows about the socialist develop a modicum of of social graces first and then we will see.
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby mothra » 04 Feb 2018, 19:26

BigOl64 wrote:
mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:take it easy on bigol guys .... its the heat up there that makes his so grumpy, it also slows down his ability to think.

As a result his mouth continually moves while the brain is still waiting for things to cool down



He does come across as delicate.

Was there a boy scout badge for noble chins in Qld?


i never did scouts. Sorry.



I did Brownies. I'm sure i got a badge for being brave.

Do you think Bigol would like to borrow it?



Like I would give a fuck what a useless cunt like you would do.


You could be dead and rotting in the street and no-one would care


I didn't offer to do anything. Are you accustomed to women doing what you say? You're mother maybe?
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby mothra » 04 Feb 2018, 19:33

Don't run away now Hole. I think we're getting somewhere.

Do you respect your mother? Maybe even fear her a little?
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby Lefty » 04 Feb 2018, 20:36

BigOl64 wrote:
Lefty wrote:Here's some education for BigOl - it's aimed more at children but he shouldn't let that put him off.

100 dogs and 94 bones

This parable examines unemployment under the current neo-liberal system and explains the simple facts - the system ensures that there are less jobs than jobseekers and no amount of training or motivation will magically allow them to step into jobs that don't exist. Government intervention is necessary.

It's very simple, early primary school math - that's the reality.



Exactly totally agree, at least 4% of the population is totally unemployable and NOTHING will help them get a job. So why even bother?


Leave them on the dole and forget about them, they will never do anything themselves and anything done to help them is a total waste of time.


Sorry -fail. You've missed the point entirely and managed to arrive at the opposite conclusion to the facts presented by the article and my previous posts. Read again.

Read and re- read as many times as it takes you to grasp the facts - that unemployment is mostly a product of the economic system and that when we have made a realistic, sustained effort to reduce it we have managed to virtually eliminate it for decades at a time. Other countries had similar success in the same era, though Australia's results were among the best.

I urge you to educate yourself on some very basic economics and hopefully you will begin to understand concepts such as demand deficiency and how the fluctuating overall demand for goods and services dictates how many jobs the private sector actually creates versus how many jobseekers there are at the time.

Even leaving the humanity out of the equation, why would we want to deliberately leave five or even ten percent or more of our human resources sitting idle and unused? We still have to pay them to survive and pay for a whole bureaucratic edifice to support them - if we have to shell out the money anyway, why not put them to work?

Does deliberately paying for deliberate wastage make sense to you?
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby Lefty » 04 Feb 2018, 21:06

BigOl64 wrote:
Lefty wrote:
That was a conservative estimate of cost, not salary genius.


Nice try :roll

Baby sitting someone at home require vastly less people than baby sitting some one in a workplace. Therefore vastly less costs


No, it requires a virtual army of heavily privately-owned but government-funded "unemployment industries" to manage the welfare dependent pool that arises as an outcome of governments choice to abandon employment creation when the private market fails to fully utilise all available labour - which is nearly always, to varying degrees depending on broad economic conditions.

And yet even after "baby sitting someone at home", you haven't solved the basic problem - they are still unemployed. Do you prefer that we continue to pay them a poverty-level wage to do nothing at home rather than pay them a basic, minimum living wage in order to engage in some productive work, however humble that may be?

Understand the choices here? Either pay them a government-funded, poverty-level allowance to do nothing while having them overseen by a largely privatised bureaucracy designed to cater for (and profit from) the results of a permanent pool of unemployment - which is what we do currently - or re-direct that spending to allow them to engage with society through paid employment at the minimum wage and conditions set down by law.

Both approaches cost public money but one puts people to work while the other entrenches unemployment - I'd like to hear a good argument as to why returning the nation to full employment is a bad idea (I don't consider "having zero unemployment would make unions stronger" to be a good argument against).

It's like you yourself have never had a job and are clueless to what happens in a workplace.


No, been fully employed for the past 21 years and on and off during the bad economic years before that.

But you know prolly know everything there is to know about fucken welfare, don't you?


Certainly not everything. I experienced it first-hand when I when I walked out of high school and straight into the 1990 recession - Australia's worst economic downturn since the Great Depression of the 1930's. I recall the endless training schemes to prepare us for jobs that did not exist at the time, jumping through hoops etc. I recall one such session where a professional woman hired by the government to motivate us admitted to the "class" : "Yes, these are economically hard times - there is currently one job available for every 400 applicants". She then went on to tell us - in the nicest possible terms - that unemployment was all down to our attitude, essentially all our own fault. The hypocrisy and double-think were astounding!!!! I now wonder how much public money she was being paid to regurgitate this tripe and why it was not used to just directly employ a couple of us.

Eventually, the economic cycle turned and permanent, full-time jobs became available (I had a string of temporary, casual jobs on and off over those years but nothing you could build a start on) . But I haven't forgotten and my experiences motivated me to understand the system (Professor Bill Mitchell is a great teacher). So I think I do have a basic understanding of what makes it tick.

As for my job yep still making a motsa,


Excellent! Just remember to spare a thought for the rest of Australia who are being harmed by that industry (but that isn't your fault so you're off the hook) and for those at the bottom of the heap who by design of the system are the sacrificial lambs for a very shitty politico-economic ideal.



So when I say the cost, you think it means only salary do you, not the total cost of employing someone? No wonder everyone who isn't fucken retard socialist thinks you're moron.


The mining and the resources industry is what is helping retards like you from starving to death, just say thank you and sit back down.


When' you read my post for the first time, you will see that I pointed out that the cost of not employing everyone incurs great cost well and truly over and above the cost of their poverty level "salary" - it requires a large and very expensive edifice to support the survival of those who have been deliberately left to rot - and we don't even get anything back out of it. You have to spend the money anyway so you might as well spend it getting them to do something rather than paying to ensure that they do nothing.

Unemployment is a scourge that takes a great toll on those cast to the bottom of the heap - and the best way to fix this is to fix the main cause rather then shelling out endlessly to pay for the symptoms.

Such deliberate waste of resources is a travesty. Such treatment of human beings is appalling. Our historical efforts proved beyond doubt that there is no significant-sized pool of inherently hopeless individuals - there are a few, but not that many. It's mostly an economic system problem. We fixed it before, we can fix it again.



The mining and resources industry is generally useful and we are truly lucky that our country has been blessed with such an abundance of natural tesources. However, the facts are that outside a once in a century investment boom, mining employs only a very small portion of the workforce, usually just a few percent. It generates few jobs overall. It is mostly foreign-owned which results in a good portion of the revenue being whisked away overseas, even though it is counted as Australian GDP.

Thanks to our pissweak political stance, one resource industry - yours - is inflicting probably more harm on the economy than benefits and actually threatening businesses and jobs. Though again that's not your fault personally of course.

In short - it's good to have so many natural resources but mining is certainly not the big driver of jobs and growth.
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby johnsmith » 04 Feb 2018, 21:38

Lefty wrote:it requires a large and very expensive edifice to support the survival of those who have been deliberately left to rot -


about $1.3B per year just on job seeker agencies, that doesn't include the costs of running centrelink

that's according to the article I put up earlier
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby Lefty » 04 Feb 2018, 21:42

johnsmith wrote:interesting article, even if it is a couple of years old

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/careers/investigation-exposes-fraud-within-taxpayer-funded-jobs-services-australia/news-story/9d5d9181be2bac46efd4c1857ac092a2

and unemployment benefits make up the smallest amount of the 'welfare' budget


Yes, Prof Mitchell is particularly scathing of the privatised "unemployment industry" as he calls it. An incentive to profit from rather than rectify the pool of unemployment that a lack of appropriate fiscal policy has created in the first place. A costly, ongoing splurge of public funds to achieve precisely nothing (unless you think that the primary purpose of "helping" the unemployed should be to maximise private shareholder returns).
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby Lefty » 04 Feb 2018, 21:47

johnsmith wrote:
Lefty wrote:it requires a large and very expensive edifice to support the survival of those who have been deliberately left to rot -


about $1.3B per year just on job seeker agencies, that doesn't include the costs of running centrelink

that's according to the article I put up earlier


Yep, shocking, disgusting and outrageous from a humanitarian point of view.

Just plain stupidly wasteful even from a detached, economic point of view.
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Re: Civil Conscription

Postby Lefty » 05 Feb 2018, 06:46

The Australian government is giving $430,000 to an American consultancy to tell it how to improve Centrelink’s call centre, a move unions describe as an “absolutely outrageous” waste.

The Centrelink call centre has come in for intense criticism over the wait times in recent years. In the last financial year, customers were met with 55m busy signals, up from 29m in the previous year, and the wait times are a cause of constant frustration to welfare recipients.

The pressure on the call centre, which the Community and Public Sector Union (CPSU) attributes to job cuts, led the government to announce this year that it would bring in multinational outsourcing group Serco to help operate the service.


Centrelink call wait times balloon to 16 minutes on average
Read more
It also announced last month that it was bringing in a foreign consultant to advise it on how to resolve the call centre’s problems.

The contract was awarded on a limited tender to Brad Cleveland Company LLC, a US-based consultancy, for $430,000.

The CPSU national secretary, Nadine Flood, said the money was being wasted and the government would learn nothing it did not already know.

The call centre was the subject of an exhaustive audit by the Australian National Audit Office in 2015 and a commonwealth ombudsman inquiry in 2014, and has been scrutinised in Senate inquiries, including in budget estimates, on a frequent basis.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/feb/03/paying-430000-for-advice-on-centrelink-call-centre-outrageous

Money to burn in order to keep the unemployed in that state rather than simply fixing the problem once and for all.

The amount of money and resources poured into "managing" the permanent pool of poverty and disadvantage created by neoliberalism makes the argument "we can't afford to create jobs for everyone" a sick joke and obviously a simple outright lie.
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