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Re: Australian economy

Postby Squire » 22 Oct 2017, 21:42

HBS Guy wrote:Not helped when we have cut tariffs much more than our trading partners and signed FTAs that severely hurt our manufacturers. Nutcases like YouLiar can pretend selling a million bucks of agricultural product is a win but it is almost meaningless especially if it is unprocessed produce, live export etc.


We are done for. From the article in my previous post.

"Without exceptional technical and entrepreneurial talent, or a cultural tradition of producing highly esteemed goods, a nation with high wage and welfare costs and a small domestic market will struggle to make a success of manufacturing."
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 27 Oct 2017, 07:43

I repeat - we are on a voluntarily chosen path and to say otherwise is simply alternative facts.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 27 Oct 2017, 08:20

Without exceptional technical and entrepreneurial talent, or a cultural tradition of producing highly esteemed goods,


Were you watching when Hockey deliberately exterminated these things in our small but long-successful car making industry?

You understand that manufacturing and the factors you mention above are two sides of the same coin? Until recently we had manufacturing industry that nurtured these very things - but since we have killed it there is no longer that much reason for them to exist. Understand the concept of deliberate simplification and dumbing-down?

Yes, by deliberately ensuring all foreign goods have total unfettered access (while not requiring them to reciprocate!) we can and have felt wealthier through access to a broad abundance of very cheap goods, which we have payed for by endlessly expanding our debt to income ratio. But we have about reached the end of that trick and the choices we made to burn bridges behind us are now just beginning to come home to roost.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby HBS Guy » 27 Oct 2017, 08:47

Labor MUST rescind the worst of the FTAs and insist on revisiting others.

I simply cannot believe that Australians negotiated to give unfettered access to our markets while not gaining unfettered access to the markets of the other party. I mean—what the FUCK?

If the other party resists cancel the FTA unilaterally and slap a big tariff on that country! Tariffs need to increase anyway, we have unilaterally cut tariffs too much.

Run out a real NBN and offer startups assistance; high R&D writeoffs, quicker bankruptcy provisions—lots of startups fail, have a one–year bankruptcy then the entrepeneur can try again (not apply when shonky accountancy etc applies of course.)
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Squire » 27 Oct 2017, 12:37

HBS Guy wrote:Labor MUST rescind the worst of the FTAs and insist on revisiting others.

I simply cannot believe that Australians negotiated to give unfettered access to our markets while not gaining unfettered access to the markets of the other party. I mean—what the FUCK?

If the other party resists cancel the FTA unilaterally and slap a big tariff on that country! Tariffs need to increase anyway, we have unilaterally cut tariffs too much.

Run out a real NBN and offer startups assistance; high R&D writeoffs, quicker bankruptcy provisions—lots of startups fail, have a one–year bankruptcy then the entrepeneur can try again (not apply when shonky accountancy etc applies of course.)


People don't seem to understand that higher tariffs mean higher prices, more red tape for industries buying foreign capital goods and more shoddy goods on the market.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby HBS Guy » 29 Oct 2017, 02:15

Too low means business moves to China and often quality drifts.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 29 Oct 2017, 07:12

Labor MUST rescind the worst of the FTAs and insist on revisiting others.

I simply cannot believe that Australians negotiated to give unfettered access to our markets while not gaining unfettered access to the markets of the other party. I mean—what the FUCK?

If the other party resists cancel the FTA unilaterally and slap a big tariff on that country! Tariffs need to increase anyway, we have unilaterally cut tariffs too much.

Run out a real NBN and offer startups assistance; high R&D writeoffs, quicker bankruptcy provisions—lots of startups fail, have a one–year bankruptcy then the entrepeneur can try again (not apply when shonky accountancy etc applies of course.)


Exactly! It is the definition of insanity! It's a crazed ideology that creates a sugar-hit for a while and eventuates in a sugar-crash

People don't seem to understand that higher tariffs mean higher prices,


People understand it perfectly - that's why they keep theirs (or effective equivalent measures) in place. To ensure that we are locked out of their markets while we fall over ourselves to give them unfettered access to ours, knowing that we are destroying our own means to produce and also innovate, sending us back to helpless infancy, sending what would have been domestic growth gushing out of the economy through the external sector.

more red tape for industries buying foreign capital goods


We will always require imports. The process of heading toward total reliance on foreign production (and every other thing that we need to exist) is accellerating. Some people don't seem to understand that when this is taken too far, it becomes self-reinforcing - every time we choose to destroy an industry, we lose the knowledge and ability to innovate in that field and then end up reliant on someone else. And growth flows out of the economy through the external sector. Anyway, just how many foreign capital goods are we going to need in the long run if our aim is to destroy our own ability to make use of much of that sort of thing? We certainly don't need any more of the high-tech equipment equipment (and skilled human operators) involved in vehicle engineering and assembly, and everything that supported it - the monumental fuckwit Hockey saw to that.

and more shoddy goods on the market.


This is what we call an attitude as opposed to a fact. I take this to mean that you don't believe we can produce anything of any quality ourselves apart from dirt and food. Any such assertion has no basis in reality. Although increasingly it does simply because we are on a deliberate campaign to exterminate any such abilities.

Do you understand that there is no prosperous future in deliberately crushing our own human problem-solving abilities into the dust while bleeding as many dollars out of the economy as possible while using ever-spiralling (and now unprecedented) household debt as a plasma to replace it? That a fully-sovereign currency-issuing government such as ours could replace the loss if they chose is another story and somewhat beside the point here. We are running out of room to continue the path you say is inevitable.

Do you see the outcome of this madness as it is arising here? An infantile and helpless society absolutely crushed by a massive private sector debt burden. All as a result of deliberate choices
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Re: Australian economy

Postby HBS Guy » 29 Oct 2017, 07:22

Household debt can’t increase anymore, stimulus is needed.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Squire » 29 Oct 2017, 12:27

Lefty wrote:
Labor MUST rescind the worst of the FTAs and insist on revisiting others.

I simply cannot believe that Australians negotiated to give unfettered access to our markets while not gaining unfettered access to the markets of the other party. I mean—what the FUCK?

If the other party resists cancel the FTA unilaterally and slap a big tariff on that country! Tariffs need to increase anyway, we have unilaterally cut tariffs too much.

Run out a real NBN and offer startups assistance; high R&D writeoffs, quicker bankruptcy provisions—lots of startups fail, have a one–year bankruptcy then the entrepeneur can try again (not apply when shonky accountancy etc applies of course.)


Exactly! It is the definition of insanity! It's a crazed ideology that creates a sugar-hit for a while and eventuates in a sugar-crash

People don't seem to understand that higher tariffs mean higher prices,


People understand it perfectly - that's why they keep theirs (or effective equivalent measures) in place. To ensure that we are locked out of their markets while we fall over ourselves to give them unfettered access to ours, knowing that we are destroying our own means to produce and also innovate, sending us back to helpless infancy, sending what would have been domestic growth gushing out of the economy through the external sector.

more red tape for industries buying foreign capital goods


We will always require imports. The process of heading toward total reliance on foreign production (and every other thing that we need to exist) is accellerating. Some people don't seem to understand that when this is taken too far, it becomes self-reinforcing - every time we choose to destroy an industry, we lose the knowledge and ability to innovate in that field and then end up reliant on someone else. And growth flows out of the economy through the external sector. Anyway, just how many foreign capital goods are we going to need in the long run if our aim is to destroy our own ability to make use of much of that sort of thing? We certainly don't need any more of the high-tech equipment equipment (and skilled human operators) involved in vehicle engineering and assembly, and everything that supported it - the monumental fuckwit Hockey saw to that.

and more shoddy goods on the market.


This is what we call an attitude as opposed to a fact. I take this to mean that you don't believe we can produce anything of any quality ourselves apart from dirt and food. Any such assertion has no basis in reality. Although increasingly it does simply because we are on a deliberate campaign to exterminate any such abilities.

Do you understand that there is no prosperous future in deliberately crushing our own human problem-solving abilities into the dust while bleeding as many dollars out of the economy as possible while using ever-spiralling (and now unprecedented) household debt as a plasma to replace it? That a fully-sovereign currency-issuing government such as ours could replace the loss if they chose is another story and somewhat beside the point here. We are running out of room to continue the path you say is inevitable.

Do you see the outcome of this madness as it is arising here? An infantile and helpless society absolutely crushed by a massive private sector debt burden. All as a result of deliberate choices


You are missing a major point that Australia cannot call itself a free country if you can't buy whatever you want from whomever you choose without government imposing imposts.

Tariffs will bloat the bureaucracy further.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 30 Oct 2017, 08:16

Well thank God we are becoming about the only free country in the world by that measure then - even the "land of the free and home of the brave" take steps to ensure it does not wipe it's own ability to do things out of existence. Unsurprisingly, the FTA with the US has delivered benefits almost entirely in one direction.

The government also impinges on your freedom of choice by forcing you to stop at red lights - what could possibly go wrong with each and every citizen exercising total freedom of individual choice there whenever they want?

Like it or not, Margret Thatcher was 180 degrees wrong when she declared that there is no such thing as society. We wish others well but we look after our own first - the alternative is a steady slide to oblivion.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 30 Oct 2017, 08:26

Tariffs will bloat the bureaucracy further.


Squire - we've been running the neo-liberal agenda for nearly 40 years now.....when is the bureaucracy supposed to start getting smaller? It's grown, we've just outsourced large parts of it to those whose motive is not broad public purpose but narrow private profit. It's difficult to find examples of things that have truly functioned significantly better. At best many have functioned no better and no cheaper - at worst some have been disasterous.

Like it or not, we don't have too much government - we have too little. We have taken many important things out of the hands of the people and placed them in the hands of those with zero interest in the lives of the people who rely on them and see the system merely as a milking cow. The costs of private provision of essential services have seldom been shown to be more efficient in the long run.

An entity cannot be run for both maximum public purpose and maximum private shareholder return at the same time, one motive will automatically subjugate the other - guess which one?

When things royally fuck up, the electorate blames the government anyway regardless of whether it was being publicly or privately run so they might as well just take the important things back since the public is shelling out for private provision anyway.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Squire » 30 Oct 2017, 13:40

Lefty wrote:
Tariffs will bloat the bureaucracy further.


Squire - we've been running the neo-liberal agenda for nearly 40 years now.....when is the bureaucracy supposed to start getting smaller? It's grown, we've just outsourced large parts of it to those whose motive is not broad public purpose but narrow private profit. It's difficult to find examples of things that have truly functioned significantly better. At best many have functioned no better and no cheaper - at worst some have been disasterous.

Like it or not, we don't have too much government - we have too little. We have taken many important things out of the hands of the people and placed them in the hands of those with zero interest in the lives of the people who rely on them and see the system merely as a milking cow. The costs of private provision of essential services have seldom been shown to be more efficient in the long run.

An entity cannot be run for both maximum public purpose and maximum private shareholder return at the same time, one motive will automatically subjugate the other - guess which one?

When things royally fuck up, the electorate blames the government anyway regardless of whether it was being publicly or privately run so they might as well just take the important things back since the public is shelling out for private provision anyway.


The politics-public service connection is a Ponzi scheme. Public servants have an interest in building their empire because their pay is related to the size of their department, so their objective is to make sure it bloats and gets good pay increases.

Likewise, politicans vote to increase their salaries when those of the public service rise.

Thus the politics-public service Ponzi scheme.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 31 Oct 2017, 22:16

And how's the alternative working out?

It's really simple - we require a return to the concept of public purpose which is in turn based of the realisation that civilisation is based on an interconnected society.....we are not simply a loosely-grouped gaggle of individuals whose one and only drive is to maximise each ones own avariciousness, though it is this very Hayekian wet dream that has been relentlessly promoted to us for the past 35-40 years (to the enormous benefit of the 1% at the top).

The utter failure of so many facets of the former public domain to deliver either better or more cost-effective outcomes once privatised or remaining in public ownership but being forced to run as a private enterprise has been demonstrated so many times that one would think that common sense would prevent our elite from relentlessly continuing the path. But as John Quiggin notes "they seem immune to facts and evidence".
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 31 Oct 2017, 22:27

Labor talks sense on free trade agreements

All new free trade agreements will have to be independently analysed to highlight both economic benefits and downsides before they are signed, federal Labor will pledge today…

Delivering the third instalment of Labor’s FutureAsia policy, shadow trade minister Jason Clare will promise to have the Productivity Commission conduct an economic analysis of every FTA before it is signed…

“The two major political parties both support free trade. With good reason, we rise and fall on what we sell to the rest of the world.

“But … if we want to avoid the sort of anti-trade and anti-globalisation backlash that we have seen in the US and elsewhere we have got to do something about the growing gap between wealthier and poorer Australians”…

Mr Clare will say while equality needs to be addressed at a domestic policy level, having the Productivity Commission analyse future FTAs will be “a practical, commonsense way to address some of the scepticism that often surrounds these agreements”.

“It will be an honest assessment of the deal, done at arm’s length from government. It will identify the benefits and the costs. What it means for jobs, household income and different sectors of the economy as well as the strategic and other non-economic benefits.”

He will say the problem with the current set-up is that an FTA is signed and then a report prepared by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade “outlining why the agreement is in Australia’s national interest”.

“Given all the scepticism that exists I don’t think it’s good enough to rely on a report from the same people who negotiated the deal that says it’s a good deal. It should be independently assessed,” he will say.


I would harbour a few doubts that such an ideologically-hidebound bastion of neoliberal groupthink as the PC could be trusted to come up with much that was truly in the best interests of Australians, but it seems even they have their doubts about FTA's.......

The benefits of increased merchandise trade emanating from bilateral trade agreements have been exaggerated.

Different and complex rules of origin in Australia’s preferential trade agreements are likely to impede competition and add to the costs of firms engaging in trade.

The nature and scope of negotiating remits should be assessed from a national structural reform perspective before entry into negotiations, rather than primarily for export opportunities. The text of proposed trade agreements should be made public and a rigorous analysis independent of the negotiating agency published with the final text.

The Australian Government should seek to avoid the inclusion of Investors-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) provisions in bilateral and regional trade agreements that grant foreign investors in Australia substantive or procedural rights greater than those enjoyed by Australian investors.

The history of Intellectual Property (IP) being addressed in preferential trade deals has resulted in more stringent arrangements than contained in the multilateral agreed Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property (TRIPS). Australia’s participation in international negotiations in relation to IP laws should focus on plurilateral or multilateral settings. Support for any measures to alter the extent and enforcement of IP rights should be informed by a robust economic analysis of the resultant benefits and costs.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby MilesAway » 01 Nov 2017, 14:35

Lefty wrote:I repeat - we are on a voluntarily chosen path and to say otherwise is simply alternative facts.

Who volunteered?
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Re: Australian economy

Postby HBS Guy » 01 Nov 2017, 20:11

The electorate?
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 02 Nov 2017, 05:28

MilesAway wrote:
Lefty wrote:I repeat - we are on a voluntarily chosen path and to say otherwise is simply alternative facts.

Who volunteered?


Not I. But it hasn't come about by way of any higher power such as the supposed invisible hand of the market - choices have been made that have led us this direction.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby HBS Guy » 04 Nov 2017, 19:09

Bloody retailers! Wanted penalty rates cut, now they are bleating there was no growth in spending in retail in Sep.

Now they want the govt to increase peoples’ incomes—but not by reinstating penalty rates!


Pathetic!


http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2017/11/03/retailers-prepare-for-miserable-christmas/
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 05 Nov 2017, 07:05

HBS Guy wrote:Bloody retailers! Wanted penalty rates cut, now they are bleating there was no growth in spending in retail in Sep.

Now they want the govt to increase peoples’ incomes—but not by reinstating penalty rates!


Pathetic!


http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2017/11/03/retailers-prepare-for-miserable-christmas/


Oh, the irony :roll

For a long time we used private sector debt growth to power spending. We appear to be getting close to exhausting that avenue and economic growth must be once again driven by the more normal fuel of household income growth - too bad this is scarcely occurring.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Nov 2017, 07:59

Yup. Even the Libs are going to have to stimulate the economy. That will kill them!

Labor, once elected MUST keep hammering the Libs with the $500Bn debt they left (add in the $60Bn debt of NBN Co!) MUST destroy the myth that the Libs are the better economic managers!
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 05 Nov 2017, 08:06

Yup. Of course, if only Turdfull would take control of the massive energy gouge situation there would be a bit less pressure on household budgets straight away and the cost burden on business would ease back as well - but it will be a cold day in hell when the champion of do-nothing so much as lifts a finger to actually govern the country.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Nov 2017, 08:11

But but but the rightwing will be unhappy! Might kick turdful out the Lodge!

I can’t remember Billy Big Ears being this bad!
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 05 Nov 2017, 08:34

HBS Guy wrote:But but but the rightwing will be unhappy! Might kick turdful out the Lodge!

I can’t remember Billy Big Ears being this bad!


As much as I despised Howard..............Turdfull is basically the definition of useless! What the fuck is he getting paid for?
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Re: Australian economy

Postby Lefty » 05 Nov 2017, 08:37

HBS Guy wrote:Bloody retailers! Wanted penalty rates cut, now they are bleating there was no growth in spending in retail in Sep.

Now they want the govt to increase peoples’ incomes—but not by reinstating penalty rates!


Pathetic!


http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2017/11/03/retailers-prepare-for-miserable-christmas/


RBA's next meeting is Tuesday - possible surprise move down?

Sure won't be going up anyway. Ain't no demand-driven inflation here - just sad, broke consumers.
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Re: Australian economy

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Nov 2017, 08:41

God knows!

Why does he hang around? He has gone back on all his principles and is just a terrified jellyfish eager to just please the right wing ratbags in the Coalition. They will blame him for the election loss and I doubt he will get his $1.7m back from the Party.

If I was him I would have quit years ago and retired to the south of France or something!


Hmmm dry roasting some cherry tomatoes for breakfast and I can smell them cooking down, hmmmmm! Musroom and bacon–wrapped asparagus will join them in a few minutes.
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