Something nice about Donald Trump

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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby johnsmith » 12 Jan 2019, 17:26

SethBullock wrote:As a matter of fact, yes. See that's a little piece of this that of course gets ignored.


no it's not. Donald could easily separate funding for the wall from funding for other services, and so continue government except for the building of the wall. Alternatively, he could have tried for his funding when he had the numbers in congress. Instead, he's trying to blackmail the democrats into agreeing with something they have always opposed, and said they would never support by shutting down everything else. Good policy doesn't need to be forced onto people, usually if the policy and reasoning are sound, people will support it. Trying to use blackmail to force a crappy policy onto others who have always said they don't support it is criminals, or should be.

Donald is like the kid who strikes out during a game of baseball, and so takes the only bat available and goes home so none of the other kids can play. Poor sportsmanship.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby SethBullock » 12 Jan 2019, 17:38

Aussie wrote:So...by whose order was Government shut down? Pelosi's. That Schumer (sp) bloke?


This partial shutdown is because Congress appropriated money for it to run for a finite amount of time. That time ran out. When the statutory authority to spend money ended, the government had to shut down.

Trump didn't arbitrarily shut it down. He doesn't have the authority to do that. He can't do that because it would be against the law to arbitrarily shut it down as long as there is law authorizing it to operate. For now, there is no such law in effect.

Our system is one of checks and balances. Congress may send a bill for the President to sign. If he signs it, it becomes law. The last time he did that, in March of 2017, he warned the Congress that he would not sign a bill like that again (without border wall funding). Now if he doesn't sign the bill, Congress may override the President's veto by a vote of both Houses of Congress. If they override his veto, the bill becomes law and goes into effect. But the votes aren't there to override his veto.

So we have a stalemate for the time being.

And, as I said, this is as much the fault of Nan and Chuckie as it is Trump's.

But you won't hear that on CNN. Trust me.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby Aussie » 12 Jan 2019, 17:42

I saw Trump claim ownership of the shut down on TV. I saw his lips move and I heard the words.

This partial shutdown is because Congress appropriated money for it to run for a finite amount of time. That time ran out. When the statutory authority to spend money ended, the government had to shut down.


I don't get that. How come some Departments keep working...presumably paid to keep working?
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby SethBullock » 12 Jan 2019, 17:55

johnsmith wrote:
SethBullock wrote:As a matter of fact, yes. See that's a little piece of this that of course gets ignored.


no it's not. Donald could easily separate funding for the wall from funding for other services, and so continue government except for the building of the wall. Alternatively, he could have tried for his funding when he had the numbers in congress. Instead, he's trying to blackmail the democrats into agreeing with something they have always opposed, and said they would never support by shutting down everything else. Good policy doesn't need to be forced onto people, usually if the policy and reasoning are sound, people will support it. Trying to use blackmail to force a crappy policy onto others who have always said they don't support it is criminals, or should be.

Donald is like the kid who strikes out during a game of baseball, and so takes the only bat available and goes home so none of the other kids can play. Poor sportsmanship.


Lol ... "criminal"

No president MUST sign a bill. Nowhere in our Constitution does it say that. His refusal to sign this bill is his only leverage, John. He can't "separate" wall funding because if he signs that bill, the Dems in the House will not give him a bill with wall funding in it later. They will not do it, and Trump knows it.

Earlier in this thread I believe both Texan and I have pointed out that this President tries to keep his campaign promises. I believe I said he's a fighter and scrappy.

I believe I may have also said that for decades, the Washington Political Establishment has played their little games with the immigration debate - both sides posturing, both sides undermining any possibility for agreement, both sides being deceptive, and both sides hiding their true motives.

Then along came Trump. And he actually does what he says he'll do, and the Permanent Washingtonians are aghast! He doesn't play their little games, and they can't stand it.

This isn't a "Trump shutdown". It's an impasse between the Democrats in the House and the President. It is both of their shutdown.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby SethBullock » 12 Jan 2019, 17:58

Aussie wrote:I saw Trump claim ownership of the shut down on TV. I saw his lips move and I heard the words.

This partial shutdown is because Congress appropriated money for it to run for a finite amount of time. That time ran out. When the statutory authority to spend money ended, the government had to shut down.


I don't get that. How come some Departments keep working...presumably paid to keep working?


Now I don't have an answer for you. Obviously, the laws that authorize their operation expire at different times. Why that is, I don't know.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby SethBullock » 12 Jan 2019, 18:08

Aussie wrote:I saw Trump claim ownership of the shut down on TV. I saw his lips move and I heard the words.

This partial shutdown is because Congress appropriated money for it to run for a finite amount of time. That time ran out. When the statutory authority to spend money ended, the government had to shut down.


I don't get that. How come some Departments keep working...presumably paid to keep working?


Yes, Aussie, I too distinctly remember Trump saying he would shut the government down. That's what he said.

But being technically correct is not his forte. Technically, he was wrong. He didn't shut down the government on his own authority. What he did was refuse to sign a bill, and the consequence of that is the shutdown, as I have explained.

Trump has taken responsibility for his decision many times, while at the same time saying that he is prepared to sign a spending bill with border wall funding in it and reopen government immediately.

So if Nan and Chuckie refuse to give him a bill he'll sign, knowing that Congress cannot override his veto, then the shutdown is their fault equally with Trump.

You heard it here first.

Glad to be of service.

CNN didn't tell you that, did they!
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby Aussie » 12 Jan 2019, 18:13

Trump has taken responsibility for his decision many times, while at the same time saying that he is prepared to sign a spending bill with border wall funding in it and reopen government immediately.


Blackmail. What would you say if it read like this:

Trump has taken responsibility for his decision many times, while at the same time saying that he is prepared to sign a spending bill with Aussie gifted $B1 in it and reopen government immediately.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby SethBullock » 12 Jan 2019, 18:21

Aussie wrote:
Trump has taken responsibility for his decision many times, while at the same time saying that he is prepared to sign a spending bill with border wall funding in it and reopen government immediately.


Blackmail. What would you say if it read like this:

Trump has taken responsibility for his decision many times, while at the same time saying that he is prepared to sign a spending bill with Aussie gifted $B1 in it and reopen government immediately.


A lot of wisecracks come to mind, but I'll keep it straight for now.

Aussie, if Trump was asking for something that was overwhelmingly opposed by the Congress, they would simply override his veto.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby Aussie » 12 Jan 2019, 18:24

Yer gonna have to clear something up for me. When you say 'Congress,' do you mean a joint sitting of the House and The Senate?
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby greggerypeccary » 12 Jan 2019, 18:28

SethBullock wrote:But being technically correct is not his forte.


:bgrin
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby SethBullock » 12 Jan 2019, 18:33

Aussie wrote:Yer gonna have to clear something up for me. When you say 'Congress,' do you mean a joint sitting of the House and The Senate?


Yes.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby Aussie » 12 Jan 2019, 18:38

SethBullock wrote:
Aussie wrote:Yer gonna have to clear something up for me. When you say 'Congress,' do you mean a joint sitting of the House and The Senate?


Yes.


Okay, ta. So what are the numbers on the Wall issue?
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby SethBullock » 12 Jan 2019, 18:43

Aussie wrote:
SethBullock wrote:
Aussie wrote:Yer gonna have to clear something up for me. When you say 'Congress,' do you mean a joint sitting of the House and The Senate?


Yes.


Okay, ta. So what are the numbers on the Wall issue?


The Dems have a majority in the House, and the Republicans have a majority in the Senate.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby johnsmith » 12 Jan 2019, 19:03

SethBullock wrote:No president MUST sign a bill


the president should put the needs of the people he serves over and above the needs of his ego or even his politics.

SethBullock wrote: His refusal to sign this bill is his only leverage, John.

he can always try 'the art of the deal' :roll

SethBullock wrote:He can't "separate" wall funding because if he signs that bill, the Dems in the House will not give him a bill with wall funding in it later. They will not do it, and Trump knows it.

Something he should have considered long before the democrats gained any majority. It's his own fault now if he left it to late.

SethBullock wrote:Earlier in this thread I believe both Texan and I have pointed out that this President tries to keep his campaign promises.

only the ones that suit him

SethBullock wrote:I believe I may have also said that for decades, the Washington Political Establishment has played their little games with the immigration debate - both sides posturing, both sides undermining any possibility for agreement, both sides being deceptive, and both sides hiding their true motives.


and nothing has changed just because trump is at the helm. The immigration debate was merely a tool he used, quite effectively it turned out, to get people to vote for him. That is the only reason he is now opposed to immigration. For decades he's been happy to use illegals to build his towers, suddenly he's opposed to them? yeah right ... like I'm opposed breathing :roll

SethBullock wrote: He doesn't play their little games, and they can't stand it.


sure he does, he just doesn't play for the usual teams .... trump only plays for team trump.


SethBullock wrote:This isn't a "Trump shutdown"


Sure it is. He's trying to blackmail the dems to vote with him. It's all on him. At no stage over the last few years did they ever give any impression they were open to negotiating on this issue. He knew that and still he waited until they had the numbers in the house to block him before trying for funding. Anyone else who really wanted a wall would have done it when he had the numbers. But not trump ... you know why? Because for him, the wall is secondary. For him this is all about his ego, and making the democrats back down no matter what the cost .

The only reason you refuse to see it is because you want the wall, and so you are willing to overlook everything else.

Aussie wrote:Blackmail. What would you say if it read like this:

Trump has taken responsibility for his decision many times, while at the same time saying that he is prepared to sign a spending bill with Aussie gifted $B1 in it and reopen government immediately.



would he shut down govt. to give that $1B gift Seth?
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby Sprintcyclist » 12 Jan 2019, 19:59

SethBullock wrote:
Aussie wrote:So...by whose order was Government shut down? Pelosi's. That Schumer (sp) bloke?


This partial shutdown is because Congress appropriated money for it to run for a finite amount of time. That time ran out. When the statutory authority to spend money ended, the government had to shut down.

Trump didn't arbitrarily shut it down. He doesn't have the authority to do that. He can't do that because it would be against the law to arbitrarily shut it down as long as there is law authorizing it to operate. For now, there is no such law in effect.

Our system is one of checks and balances. Congress may send a bill for the President to sign. If he signs it, it becomes law. The last time he did that, in March of 2017, he warned the Congress that he would not sign a bill like that again (without border wall funding). Now if he doesn't sign the bill, Congress may override the President's veto by a vote of both Houses of Congress. If they override his veto, the bill becomes law and goes into effect. But the votes aren't there to override his veto.

So we have a stalemate for the time being.

And, as I said, this is as much the fault of Nan and Chuckie as it is Trump's.

But you won't hear that on CNN. Trust me.



' .......... Nan and Chuckie ...... ' were all for a wall then their party were in power
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby Aussie » 12 Jan 2019, 20:01

SethBullock wrote:
Aussie wrote:
SethBullock wrote:
Aussie wrote:Yer gonna have to clear something up for me. When you say 'Congress,' do you mean a joint sitting of the House and The Senate?


Yes.


Okay, ta. So what are the numbers on the Wall issue?


The Dems have a majority in the House, and the Republicans have a majority in the Senate.


I know that Seth...but if there was a joint sitting.....what are the numbers concerning this Wall?
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby johnsmith » 12 Jan 2019, 20:02

Sprintcyclist wrote:' .......... Nan and Chuckie ...... ' were all for a wall then their party were in power


that's funny, I don't recall them ever proposing a bill to congress to fund any wall ... can you provide a link to this?
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby SethBullock » 13 Jan 2019, 07:06

johnsmith wrote:
SethBullock wrote:No president MUST sign a bill


the president should put the needs of the people he serves over and above the needs of his ego or even his politics.


So also should a Democratic member of Congress.

SethBullock wrote:He can't "separate" wall funding because if he signs that bill, the Dems in the House will not give him a bill with wall funding in it later. They will not do it, and Trump knows it.

johnsmith wrote:Something he should have considered long before the democrats gained any majority. It's his own fault now if he left it to late.


Feckless, weak, status quo-seeking Republicans didn't put it into the bill, and now, here we are.

SethBullock wrote:Earlier in this thread I believe both Texan and I have pointed out that this President tries to keep his campaign promises.

johnsmith wrote:only the ones that suit him


Which campaign promises has he broken?

SethBullock wrote:I believe I may have also said that for decades, the Washington Political Establishment has played their little games with the immigration debate - both sides posturing, both sides undermining any possibility for agreement, both sides being deceptive, and both sides hiding their true motives.


johnsmith wrote:and nothing has changed just because trump is at the helm. The immigration debate was merely a tool he used, quite effectively it turned out, to get people to vote for him. That is the only reason he is now opposed to immigration. For decades he's been happy to use illegals to build his towers, suddenly he's opposed to them? yeah right ... like I'm opposed breathing :roll


If all he wanted was to use the issue to get elected, he would have dropped it after he was elected.

SethBullock wrote: He doesn't play their little games, and they can't stand it.


johnsmith wrote:sure he does, he just doesn't play for the usual teams .... trump only plays for team trump.


As long as he continues to do, or try to do, the things he said he would do, that we elected him to do, that perception is irrelevant.


SethBullock wrote:This isn't a "Trump shutdown"


johnsmith wrote:Sure it is. He's trying to blackmail the dems to vote with him. It's all on him. At no stage over the last few years did they ever give any impression they were open to negotiating on this issue. He knew that and still he waited until they had the numbers in the house to block him before trying for funding. Anyone else who really wanted a wall would have done it when he had the numbers. But not trump ... you know why? Because for him, the wall is secondary. For him this is all about his ego, and making the democrats back down no matter what the cost .

The only reason you refuse to see it is because you want the wall, and so you are willing to overlook everything else.


It is a shutdown with equal responsibility to the Democrats in the House and the President.

The president is willing to let the government shut down if there is no funding for the border barrier.
The Democrats are willing to let the government shut down instead of putting in the funding.
Equal responsibility.

Aussie wrote:Blackmail. What would you say if it read like this:

Trump has taken responsibility for his decision many times, while at the same time saying that he is prepared to sign a spending bill with Aussie gifted $B1 in it and reopen government immediately.


would he shut down govt. to give that $1B gift Seth?


You can hope, Aussie. :roll
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby SethBullock » 13 Jan 2019, 08:00

Aussie wrote:
SethBullock wrote:
Aussie wrote:
SethBullock wrote:
Aussie wrote:Yer gonna have to clear something up for me. When you say 'Congress,' do you mean a joint sitting of the House and The Senate?


Yes.


Okay, ta. So what are the numbers on the Wall issue?


The Dems have a majority in the House, and the Republicans have a majority in the Senate.


I know that Seth...but if there was a joint sitting.....what are the numbers concerning this Wall?


There are a total of 280 Democratic members of Congress and 252 Republicans, counting both the House and Senate.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby Aussie » 13 Jan 2019, 09:47

And before the mid-Terms?
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby johnsmith » 13 Jan 2019, 10:08

SethBullock wrote:So also should a Democratic member of Congress.


and they are ... to their constituents. The people that voted for them and were opposed to the wall. Afterall, that's who they represent.

Trump on the other hand, as President, represents all the people of the US. Is it fair? No, but every President knew that before they ran for the position of President. Don't forget also that the majority of people voted for Hillary. Trump is only president because of the screwed up way your system is set up (in my humble opinion).

SethBullock wrote:Feckless, weak, status quo-seeking Republicans didn't put it into the bill, and now, here we are.


I agree, so stop blaming the democrats.

SethBullock wrote:Which campaign promises has he broken?


https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/trumpometer/rulings/promise-broken/

there are many others that aren't listed because they're giving him more time to come good, even though we know most will fall by the wayside. These are only the ones he's publicly flipped on.


SethBullock wrote:
If all he wanted was to use the issue to get elected, he would have dropped it after he was elected.



it's an ego thing. He wants to be able to claim that he made them agree to it. Besides, the fact that his whole campaign was built around his building a wall makes it one of the few policies he can't really drop. At some point, he has to make it look like he tried for it.

SethBullock wrote:As long as he continues to do, or try to do, the things he said he would do, that we elected him to do, that perception is irrelevant.


I disagree. How or why he does something is very relevant when discussing a person.

SethBullock wrote:It is a shutdown with equal responsibility to the Democrats in the House and the President.


No it's not. Congress isn't there to rubber stamp whatever the president wants. It's up to Trump to sell it, if he can't he needs to move on or resign. Trumps biggest problem is that he doesn't even try to negotiate ... he thinks he's still CEO of one of his companies, where he dictates, and the minions say 'yes sir'. Congress doesn't work like that, something that even despite it's obvious flaws, you should be very grateful for.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby Aussie » 13 Jan 2019, 10:47

It's up to Trump to sell it, if he can't he needs to move on or resign.


Seth....if it came down to a decision between Donald being removed as POTUS (and replaced with a Republican) and the Wall...what would you choose?
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby SethBullock » 13 Jan 2019, 19:04

Aussie wrote:And before the mid-Terms?


Before the midterms there were more Republicans. I'm not your secretary. If you want exact numbers, look 'em up.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby Aussie » 13 Jan 2019, 19:15

SethBullock wrote:
Aussie wrote:And before the mid-Terms?


Before the midterms there were more Republicans. I'm not your secretary. If you want exact numbers, look 'em up.


So....a joint sitting of the House and The Senate would have delivered Donald's wall.....pre mid-Terms.
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Re: Something nice about Donald Trump

Postby SethBullock » 13 Jan 2019, 19:33

johnsmith wrote:
SethBullock wrote:So also should a Democratic member of Congress.


and they are ... to their constituents. The people that voted for them and were opposed to the wall. Afterall, that's who they represent.

Trump is also responsible to try to fulfill his campaign promises to those who voted for him.

Trump on the other hand, as President, represents all the people of the US. Is it fair? No, but every President knew that before they ran for the position of President. Don't forget also that the majority of people voted for Hillary. Trump is only president because of the screwed up way your system is set up (in my humble opinion).

A member of Congress is also supposed to represent the people of his or her whole state, not just the people who voted for him or her.

SethBullock wrote:Feckless, weak, status quo-seeking Republicans didn't put it into the bill, and now, here we are.


I agree, so stop blaming the democrats.

I don't blame the Democrats for not putting border barrier funding in the bill, but I do blame them equally for the government shutdown. They are now an equal partner in the shutdown.

SethBullock wrote:Which campaign promises has he broken?


https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/trumpometer/rulings/promise-broken/

there are many others that aren't listed because they're giving him more time to come good, even though we know most will fall by the wayside. These are only the ones he's publicly flipped on.

Some of those promises are not in his power; they are within the purview of the Congress. Others were simply not possible. The one thing I wish he would do would be to push for term limits on Congress. We'll see if that happens.

SethBullock wrote:
If all he wanted was to use the issue to get elected, he would have dropped it after he was elected.



it's an ego thing. He wants to be able to claim that he made them agree to it. Besides, the fact that his whole campaign was built around his building a wall makes it one of the few policies he can't really drop. At some point, he has to make it look like he tried for it.

You're right that it was a major component of his campaign, and so I am glad he's fighting for it. Was it just an ego thing when Obama fought to get Obamacare passed?

SethBullock wrote:As long as he continues to do, or try to do, the things he said he would do, that we elected him to do, that perception is irrelevant.


I disagree. How or why he does something is very relevant when discussing a person.

Disagree. When he's gone, it won't matter what his personal motivations were. What will matter is what was actually done.

SethBullock wrote:It is a shutdown with equal responsibility to the Democrats in the House and the President.


No it's not. Congress isn't there to rubber stamp whatever the president wants. It's up to Trump to sell it, if he can't he needs to move on or resign. Trumps biggest problem is that he doesn't even try to negotiate ... he thinks he's still CEO of one of his companies, where he dictates, and the minions say 'yes sir'. Congress doesn't work like that, something that even despite it's obvious flaws, you should be very grateful for.


Checks and balances are a part of our system. The president is not a rubber stamp for the Congress either. That is why a president may veto a bill, and that is why a congress may override the president's veto. And reports have come out that Trump IS willing to negotiate. But Nan and Chuckie say they will never put in more money for a wall. Under our system, which is a power sharing system, BOTH sides are obligated to negotiate.
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