The latest shame from Nauru

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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby mothra » 12 Jul 2018, 18:03

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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby mothra » 13 Jul 2018, 22:08

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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 11:25

So, basically, the Australian taxpayer should foot the bill for fully subsidised psychiatric treatment and other expensive treatments for those who are not citizens of Australia? The average citizen in Australia can't receive psychiatric treatment at a fully subsidised cost, and those here would happily prioritise financial resources at the expense of those who themselves, and their parents have before them, contributed financially to this country. Psychiatric treatment in Australia is very expensive; citizens have to pay sometimes hundreds of dollars for 20 min appointments.

I sympathise for the plight of these people. It is also not fair to fully subsidise medical treatments when citizens themselves don't even receive such funding from the government.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 11:26

mothra wrote:Image


Of course they're traumatised; they're locked up in detention. Clearly though, it is preferable to returning to their own country or to another 'less desirable' country since they are choosing to there, aren't they?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 11:27

Squire wrote:The policies of both major parties have been inhuman, criminal, and have damaged Australia's reputation.

Kidnapping people on the high seas and detaining them in third countries is a crime.


So, if 200,000 people arrived on boats to Australia shores, your policy would be to let all of them in, no questions asked?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Squire » 14 Jul 2018, 13:06

Auggie wrote:
Squire wrote:The policies of both major parties have been inhuman, criminal, and have damaged Australia's reputation.

Kidnapping people on the high seas and detaining them in third countries is a crime.


So, if 200,000 people arrived on boats to Australia shores, your policy would be to let all of them in, no questions asked?


It was Australia's policy since 1788 to allow boat people in until racists and bigots seized power in a coup in 1975.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 14 Jul 2018, 14:31

Auggie wrote:So, basically, the Australian taxpayer should foot the bill for fully subsidised psychiatric treatment and other expensive treatments for those who are not citizens of Australia?


if the australian taxpayer is the cause of their trauma, then yes. Definitely.



Auggie wrote: It is also not fair to fully subsidise medical treatments when citizens themselves don't even receive such funding from the government.

don't lock them in gulags in rthe first place, instead treat them properly from the beginning, and the taxpayer then has no reason to treat them any differently to any other resident.
FD.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 14:40

Squire wrote:
Auggie wrote:
Squire wrote:The policies of both major parties have been inhuman, criminal, and have damaged Australia's reputation.

Kidnapping people on the high seas and detaining them in third countries is a crime.


So, if 200,000 people arrived on boats to Australia shores, your policy would be to let all of them in, no questions asked?


It was Australia's policy since 1788 to allow boat people in until racists and bigots seized power in a coup in 1975.


Ah,dodging it. You didn't answer the question. If 200,000 people arrived on boats to Australia, would your policy be to bring them ALL in, no questions asked??
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby HBS Guy » 14 Jul 2018, 14:42

We did with the Vietnamese boat people, worked OK.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 14:45

johnsmith wrote:if the australian taxpayer is the cause of their trauma, then yes. Definitely.


Incorrect, these people have chosen to be detained over returning to their home country, or going to another country. It's not as though the Australian government is engaging in fraudulent advertising, JS. They don't say: "come to Australia and we'll let you in straightaway."

People know what the policy is: either return home and face persecution or be locked up in detention. If someone else has given them a false sense of hope, then that's not the Australian government's fault. So, I don't buy your 'if the Australian taxpayer is the cause of their trauma.'

If I choose to travel to North Korea, knowing full well that I would be imprisoned for speaking out against the regime, and then do it, is it the regime's fault for locking me up, or mine??

The issue I have with your perspective is that it completely disregards the extent of personal responsibility. In almost every situation, there is a choice - one worse than another. Many of these detainees have chosen to be detained and wait to come to Australia RATHER THAN go to another country or return home.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 14:45

HBS Guy wrote:We did with the Vietnamese boat people, worked OK.


Was it 200,000 Vietnamese? Proof?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby mothra » 14 Jul 2018, 14:46

Auggie wrote:
Squire wrote:The policies of both major parties have been inhuman, criminal, and have damaged Australia's reputation.

Kidnapping people on the high seas and detaining them in third countries is a crime.


So, if 200,000 people arrived on boats to Australia shores, your policy would be to let all of them in, no questions asked?


Against my better judgement, i will reply to this, only to say that inventing variables to test the outer reaches of people's compassion is manipulative and highly dishonest.

About the standard though, of those wishing to justify their inhumanity.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 14:47

johnsmith wrote:don't lock them in gulags in rthe first place, instead treat them properly from the beginning, and the taxpayer then has no reason to treat them any differently to any other resident.


You said before that under Labor's previous policy, we were processing refugees on shore and providing them with 6-month temporary accommodation. In what year was this?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 14:51

mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
Squire wrote:The policies of both major parties have been inhuman, criminal, and have damaged Australia's reputation.

Kidnapping people on the high seas and detaining them in third countries is a crime.


So, if 200,000 people arrived on boats to Australia shores, your policy would be to let all of them in, no questions asked?


Against my better judgement, i will reply to this, only to say that inventing variables to test the outer reaches of people's compassion is manipulative and highly dishonest.

About the standard though, of those wishing to justify their inhumanity.


It is also dishonest to not answer the question, and turn it back on the questioner. This is why the Right keeps winning arguments, Mothra, because the Left refuse to engage.

Keep it up: you're doing great.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 15:00

HBS Guy wrote:We did with the Vietnamese boat people, worked OK.


I checked. More than 80,000 Vietnamese refugees moved to Australia within a decade following the War. That's approx 8000 per year. I have always said that it was a matter of number, HBS. Last year, Australia took in around 17 thousand refugees.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-vietnamese-refugees-who-changed-white-australia
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 14 Jul 2018, 15:02

Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:don't lock them in gulags in rthe first place, instead treat them properly from the beginning, and the taxpayer then has no reason to treat them any differently to any other resident.


You said before that under Labor's previous policy, we were processing refugees on shore and providing them with 6-month temporary accommodation. In what year was this?




consider it a part of our foreign aid budget.
You realise we spend far far more of those tax dollars you keep crying about trying to keep them out. Gulags aren't cheap you know
FD.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby johnsmith » 14 Jul 2018, 15:03

Auggie wrote: This is why the Right keeps winning arguments,


in their own minds :roll :roll
FD.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby mothra » 14 Jul 2018, 15:06

Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
Squire wrote:The policies of both major parties have been inhuman, criminal, and have damaged Australia's reputation.

Kidnapping people on the high seas and detaining them in third countries is a crime.


So, if 200,000 people arrived on boats to Australia shores, your policy would be to let all of them in, no questions asked?


Against my better judgement, i will reply to this, only to say that inventing variables to test the outer reaches of people's compassion is manipulative and highly dishonest.

About the standard though, of those wishing to justify their inhumanity.


It is also dishonest to not answer the question, and turn it back on the questioner. This is why the Right keeps winning arguments, Mothra, because the Left refuse to engage.

Keep it up: you're doing great.


Auggie, i answer plenty of questions and i have answered all of these and more many, many times.

Please feel free to take it personally that i know longer feel generous enough towards you to indulge you with my time.

But you keep telling yourself you're winning. I expect you need to.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 15:11

mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
Squire wrote:The policies of both major parties have been inhuman, criminal, and have damaged Australia's reputation.

Kidnapping people on the high seas and detaining them in third countries is a crime.


So, if 200,000 people arrived on boats to Australia shores, your policy would be to let all of them in, no questions asked?


Against my better judgement, i will reply to this, only to say that inventing variables to test the outer reaches of people's compassion is manipulative and highly dishonest.

About the standard though, of those wishing to justify their inhumanity.


It is also dishonest to not answer the question, and turn it back on the questioner. This is why the Right keeps winning arguments, Mothra, because the Left refuse to engage.

Keep it up: you're doing great.


Auggie, i answer plenty of questions and i have answered all of these and more many, many times.

Please feel free to take it personally that i know longer feel generous enough towards you to indulge you with my time.

But you keep telling yourself you're winning. I expect you need to.


You haven't answered any of the questions that I'VE asked, certainly.

And I don't take it personally; I now know that you're not really the self-righteous and benevolent soul which you claim to be, although you like to think you're on the high horse.

And it's not about winning. It's about policy and people. If you want to persuade people to your point of view, and want to promote a progressive agenda, then I would humbly suggest that you don't avoid arguments, and be wiling to engage with all ideas on any level playing field - to cross the river on to enenmy territory and get your feet dirty. That's what I‘ve done with the far right, which has probably led me to go toward the right, and maybe that was mistake. Maybe I should've just ignored them and cursed them, and told them they were no longer worthy of discussion. Well, the damage has been done.
You're just more mature and experienced to realise this, I suppose.
Last edited by Auggie on 14 Jul 2018, 15:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 15:12

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote: This is why the Right keeps winning arguments,


in their own minds :roll :roll


Then answer the question: if 200,000 refugees arrived by boat, would your policy be to let them all in, no questions asked??
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 15:18

By the way, can anyone explain to me why the Gillard Government reopened Nauru despite it having been shut down by Rudd?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby HBS Guy » 14 Jul 2018, 16:06

Was that not Rudd?
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 16:12

HBS Guy wrote:Was that not Rudd?


Apparently it was Gillard who re opened it. Gillard had always been a pragmatist and a reformer (shame they got rid of her). I had read that there was a lot of political pressure against her government but I don’t know if this was the decisive factor.
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Aussie » 14 Jul 2018, 16:30

Wiki:

The Nauru Regional Processing Centre is an offshore Australian immigration detention facility, located on the South Pacific island nation of Nauru. The centre is operated by Broadspectrum (formerly Transfield Services) on behalf of the Department of Immigration and Border Protection, a department of the Government of Australia that is responsible for immigration, citizenship and border control. The use of immigration detention facilities is part of a policy of mandatory detention in Australia.

The Nauru facility was opened in 2001 as part of the Howard Government's Pacific Solution. The centre was suspended in 2008 to fulfil an election promise by the Rudd Government, but was reopened in August 2012 by the Gillard government after a large increase in the number of maritime arrivals by asylum seekers and pressure from the Abbott opposition.[2] Current Coalition and Labor Party policy states that because all detainees attempted to reach Australia by boat, they will never be settled in Australia.[3]

Many detainees have since been returned to their countries of origin, including Iraq, Syria, Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan and "unknown" destinations. Asylum-seekers found to be genuine refugees have been detained on the island since mid-2013.[4]
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Re: The latest shame from Nauru

Postby Auggie » 14 Jul 2018, 16:33

“Because there was a large increase in maritime arrivals...” does that mean there was an increase of people smuggling to Australia??
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