Imputation Credits

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Imputation Credits

Postby pinkeye » 14 Mar 2018, 04:42

Labor is being hammered for trying to reverse changes made about 20 years ago. By guess who.. that ugly little man whose legacy just keeps coming back to haunt Australians.
Mr Howard and cronies.

And YES we are talking about taxation, and yes we are talking about a scheme which is common overseas, but NOT with the measures brought in by Howard and cronies to bolster their election prospects.
When I left the INDUSTRY in 2000, Imputation credits were allowed to offset tax due, BUT NOT refundable as a tax credit. In other words, if you have imputation credits exceeding tax due, you WERE NOT, and WERE NEVER INTENDED TO, get the excess as a refund.

I WAS UNAWARE OF THIS CHANGE BY THE LIBS, ( I LEFT THE INDUSTRY AND WASN'T INTERESTED AT ALL) UNTIL MR SHORTEN BROUGHT UP THE ISSUE.
WHY AM I SURPRISED ?.
Well basically, it seems the Taxation Office was made to give away the working taxpayer's input to the people who have excess Imputation credits. THIS is wrong, and clearly an imposition on public funds.
I WISH I HAD ENOUGH franked dividends to have an excess.!! What a fucking rip-off from the public purse.
So these FOLKS who have benefited from the largesse of the Liberal government should be HAPPY that they have no tax to pay. THAT is ALL they are entitled to. I am actually outraged that for 20 years, this scam has been going on. :WTF

I totally agree with the proposed 'reform'. It is merely trying to get back on the track which was always the intent of imputation credits. TO OFFSET TAX, but not a refundable amount.

Jesus Christ ... :roll :purple
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby johnsmith » 14 Mar 2018, 08:35

this is a good move by labor. We need to remove the wealthfare from our welfare system
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby HBS Guy » 14 Mar 2018, 08:41

If you have significant amounts of shares so the dividend imputation means anything real—you won’t even be on the pension after the Libs chucked people off the part pension. They are protecting the very wealthy who have SMSFs.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby Gordy » 14 Mar 2018, 11:59

HBS Guy wrote:If you have significant amounts of shares so the dividend imputation means anything real—you won’t even be on the pension after the Libs chucked people off the part pension. They are protecting the very wealthy who have SMSFs.


If you think only the very wealthy are retiring without a pension on super funds whether they be SM or otherwise, you must have a very low threshold of what is wealthy.

Furthermore moving forward, any person who'se worked and saved money into super for their whole working life will be one of the above and many would have budgeted with the above tax law.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby johnsmith » 14 Mar 2018, 12:36

Gordy wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:If you have significant amounts of shares so the dividend imputation means anything real—you won’t even be on the pension after the Libs chucked people off the part pension. They are protecting the very wealthy who have SMSFs.


If you think only the very wealthy are retiring without a pension on super funds whether they be SM or otherwise, you must have a very low threshold of what is wealthy.

Furthermore moving forward, any person who'se worked and saved money into super for their whole working life will be one of the above and many would have budgeted with the above tax law.


why should the govt. give a refund for a tax they don't pay? It's a scam and should never have been introduced
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby johnsmith » 14 Mar 2018, 12:40

johnsmith wrote:Furthermore moving forward, any person who'se worked and saved money into super for their whole working life will be one of the above and many would have budgeted with the above tax law.


just like it's the individuals problem spending his working life believing he's going to get a pension and now can't, it's the super holders problem that tax laws change.
It's funny how all the usual wankers crying about cutting govt. spending always cry when labor tries to cut spending.

Got. welfare is there to provide a safety net, not maintain your standard of living
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby HBS Guy » 14 Mar 2018, 13:11

Gordy wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:If you have significant amounts of shares so the dividend imputation means anything real—you won’t even be on the pension after the Libs chucked people off the part pension. They are protecting the very wealthy who have SMSFs.


If you think only the very wealthy are retiring without a pension on super funds whether they be SM or otherwise, you must have a very low threshold of what is wealthy.

Furthermore moving forward, any person who'se worked and saved money into super for their whole working life will be one of the above and many would have budgeted with the above tax law.


No, the Libs chucked a lot of people off the part pension because they had too much money. These people too had worked and saved according to the rules.

So the “burden” of this move does fall mostly on the wealthy. Dividend imputation was NOT designed to reimburse tax paid, just to reduce the tax paid. Howard changed it and this now costs like $5Bn a year. No other country offers cash back if they have dividend imputation.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby pinkeye » 14 Mar 2018, 22:08

HBS Guy wrote:
Gordy wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:If you have significant amounts of shares so the dividend imputation means anything real—you won’t even be on the pension after the Libs chucked people off the part pension. They are protecting the very wealthy who have SMSFs.


If you think only the very wealthy are retiring without a pension on super funds whether they be SM or otherwise, you must have a very low threshold of what is wealthy.

Furthermore moving forward, any person who'se worked and saved money into super for their whole working life will be one of the above and many would have budgeted with the above tax law.


No, the Libs chucked a lot of people off the part pension because they had too much money. These people too had worked and saved according to the rules.

So the “burden” of this move does fall mostly on the wealthy. Dividend imputation was NOT designed to reimburse tax paid, just to reduce the tax paid. Howard changed it and this now costs like $5Bn a year. No other country offers cash back if they have dividend imputation.


Good comments all.

Yeah I am truly disgusted that this has been going on.

Kick it out , Labor.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby HBS Guy » 17 Mar 2018, 16:51

Saul Eslake:

The economist says there will be a small subset of self-funded retirees with low total incomes (as opposed to taxable income) negatively affected by what Bill Shorten and Chris Bowen are proposing.

Labor has quantified this group. It says the decision to end the cash payments will affect 14,000 full pensioners and 200,000 part-pensioners.

In its rush to paint Labor as wild-eyed tax-and-spend merchants ... the Coalition is deliberately over-egging the impact
But Eslake says if people end up losing a modest income stream they might be eligible for a larger part pension, or a part pension for the first time, because they might meet the relevant income test.

More people becoming eligible for the pension might have implications for Labor’s budget savings ($11.4bn over the forward estimates and $59bn over the medium term) – but that’s another story.

So what’s the bottom line?

Labor’s proposal looks entirely sensible at the pure policy level, particularly in a climate where the budget is in structural deficit.


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/mar/14/factchecking-coalition-claims-is-labor-going-after-mum-and-dads-savings?
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby RightSaidFred » 17 Mar 2018, 20:29

johnsmith wrote:this is a good move by labor. We need to remove the wealthfare from our welfare system


Not sure why you think its a good move, I am a bit in the middle on this one the process looks like a money go round.

On a political note the ALP is going after self funded retirees so good luck on that one, I guess the ALP are banking on this group not voting ALP in the first place
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby HBS Guy » 17 Mar 2018, 20:39

Result in Batman seems to show it hasn’t hurt their vote.

We do need to get rid of wealthfare.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby johnsmith » 17 Mar 2018, 21:21

RightSaidFred wrote:
johnsmith wrote:this is a good move by labor. We need to remove the wealthfare from our welfare system


Not sure why you think its a good move, I am a bit in the middle on this one the process looks like a money go round.

On a political note the ALP is going after self funded retirees so good luck on that one, I guess the ALP are banking on this group not voting ALP in the first place



because WEALTHFARE is killing the country. Govt. is supposed to provide a safety net, not a higher standard of living.

How the fuck can they claim back tax they haven't paid? The whole idea is preposterous.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby RightSaidFred » 18 Mar 2018, 06:21

johnsmith wrote:
RightSaidFred wrote:
johnsmith wrote:this is a good move by labor. We need to remove the wealthfare from our welfare system


Not sure why you think its a good move, I am a bit in the middle on this one the process looks like a money go round.

On a political note the ALP is going after self funded retirees so good luck on that one, I guess the ALP are banking on this group not voting ALP in the first place



because WEALTHFARE is killing the country. Govt. is supposed to provide a safety net, not a higher standard of living.

How the fuck can they claim back tax they haven't paid? The whole idea is preposterous.


This is why I am asking the question your response does not play well politically, so far this is how the ALP are explaining it without the rude words same arrogance
Looks like a lot of pain for very little gain politically.
Hitting up retirees for extra tax revenue is how it will read.
Self funded retirees is a growing group with compulsory super pushing middle to high income earners into this group more so.
My monster in law only worked part time and inherited her husbands super + other ,,,, even she only gets a partial pension...... the next generation (mine) will not get a pension for more and more (I will be many times over the limit) ..... what we have seen is both the ALP and the LNP dicking around with super which will cause problems politically.

I can see what the ALP are trying to do politically the last time they got in they did it using Blabber Mouth Rudd with a me-too Small L Liberal strategy to win then introduce a whole pile of nonsense that was the usual ALP stuff a lot even themselves rejected (stuff like the failed cash for clunkers)

At least this time they are being up front but it might play into the LNP's hands, this is a political attack on the so called rich .... that is how will play out, so far the ALP have not sold it very well.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby HBS Guy » 18 Mar 2018, 07:17

I don’t think so. If they haven’t paid tax why should they get a tax refund? To pay this school funding has been cut, the medicare rebate frozen and so on.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby RightSaidFred » 18 Mar 2018, 07:56

Gordy wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:If you have significant amounts of shares so the dividend imputation means anything real—you won’t even be on the pension after the Libs chucked people off the part pension. They are protecting the very wealthy who have SMSFs.


If you think only the very wealthy are retiring without a pension on super funds whether they be SM or otherwise, you must have a very low threshold of what is wealthy.

Furthermore moving forward, any person who'se worked and saved money into super for their whole working life will be one of the above and many would have budgeted with the above tax law.


Nice post, yes self funded retirees don't like either side dicking around with laws that effect their retirement. Given these people are not a welfare burden to the tax payer there needs to be carrot somewhere if the ALP wants to go after people who dare to succeed and plan for retirement properly good luck to them.

I think BS Shorten will possibly do a Hewson at the next election if he does more of this !
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby RightSaidFred » 18 Mar 2018, 07:58

HBS Guy wrote:I don’t think so. If they haven’t paid tax why should they get a tax refund? To pay this school funding has been cut, the medicare rebate frozen and so on.


There is no relationship at all with these topics, school funding is not dependent on marginal tax policy.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby johnsmith » 18 Mar 2018, 10:43

RightSaidFred wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
RightSaidFred wrote:
johnsmith wrote:this is a good move by labor. We need to remove the wealthfare from our welfare system


Not sure why you think its a good move, I am a bit in the middle on this one the process looks like a money go round.

On a political note the ALP is going after self funded retirees so good luck on that one, I guess the ALP are banking on this group not voting ALP in the first place



because WEALTHFARE is killing the country. Govt. is supposed to provide a safety net, not a higher standard of living.

How the fuck can they claim back tax they haven't paid? The whole idea is preposterous.


This is why I am asking the question your response does not play well politically, so far this is how the ALP are explaining it without the rude words same arrogance
Looks like a lot of pain for very little gain politically.
Hitting up retirees for extra tax revenue is how it will read.
Self funded retirees is a growing group with compulsory super pushing middle to high income earners into this group more so.
My monster in law only worked part time and inherited her husbands super + other ,,,, even she only gets a partial pension...... the next generation (mine) will not get a pension for more and more (I will be many times over the limit) ..... what we have seen is both the ALP and the LNP dicking around with super which will cause problems politically.

I can see what the ALP are trying to do politically the last time they got in they did it using Blabber Mouth Rudd with a me-too Small L Liberal strategy to win then introduce a whole pile of nonsense that was the usual ALP stuff a lot even themselves rejected (stuff like the failed cash for clunkers)

At least this time they are being up front but it might play into the LNP's hands, this is a political attack on the so called rich .... that is how will play out, so far the ALP have not sold it very well.



I'm not so sure there is very little gain politically. The last few elections labor has been losing it's traditional supporter base because they haven't been doing enough of this.

I doubt they'll lose to much of their existing vote over this anyway since those most likely to be affected are more likely to have voted liberal anyway. They're not hitting up retirees for more revenue. The retirees pay not one cent more. Anyone so affected by this that it will make their life more difficult, such as your mother in law, will end up with a higher part pension or a full pension, depending on their total income. The fact remains that the greater majority of pensioners will be largely unaffected. The libs attempts to scare pensioners won't work.
FD.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby johnsmith » 18 Mar 2018, 10:45

RightSaidFred wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:I don’t think so. If they haven’t paid tax why should they get a tax refund? To pay this school funding has been cut, the medicare rebate frozen and so on.


There is no relationship at all with these topics, school funding is not dependent on marginal tax policy.


it is when they use the excuse 'we can't afford it' as their reason to cut school and health funding while giving SMSFs $5B in tax refunds they haven't paid.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby HBS Guy » 18 Mar 2018, 12:18

Exactly. What goes out on this can’t be used for that.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby Aussie » 18 Mar 2018, 14:58

RightSaidFred wrote:
Gordy wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:If you have significant amounts of shares so the dividend imputation means anything real—you won’t even be on the pension after the Libs chucked people off the part pension. They are protecting the very wealthy who have SMSFs.


If you think only the very wealthy are retiring without a pension on super funds whether they be SM or otherwise, you must have a very low threshold of what is wealthy.

Furthermore moving forward, any person who'se worked and saved money into super for their whole working life will be one of the above and many would have budgeted with the above tax law.


Nice post, yes self funded retirees don't like either side dicking around with laws that effect their retirement. Given these people are not a welfare burden to the tax payer there needs to be carrot somewhere if the ALP wants to go after people who dare to succeed and plan for retirement properly good luck to them.

I think BS Shorten will possibly do a Hewson at the next election if he does more of this !


And that is exactly why Taxi Plate Owner self funded retirees are pissed off that Government has interfered with their plans for retirement!
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby RightSaidFred » 18 Mar 2018, 15:09

johnsmith wrote:
RightSaidFred wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
RightSaidFred wrote:
johnsmith wrote:this is a good move by labor. We need to remove the wealthfare from our welfare system


Not sure why you think its a good move, I am a bit in the middle on this one the process looks like a money go round.

On a political note the ALP is going after self funded retirees so good luck on that one, I guess the ALP are banking on this group not voting ALP in the first place



because WEALTHFARE is killing the country. Govt. is supposed to provide a safety net, not a higher standard of living.

How the fuck can they claim back tax they haven't paid? The whole idea is preposterous.


This is why I am asking the question your response does not play well politically, so far this is how the ALP are explaining it without the rude words same arrogance
Looks like a lot of pain for very little gain politically.
Hitting up retirees for extra tax revenue is how it will read.
Self funded retirees is a growing group with compulsory super pushing middle to high income earners into this group more so.
My monster in law only worked part time and inherited her husbands super + other ,,,, even she only gets a partial pension...... the next generation (mine) will not get a pension for more and more (I will be many times over the limit) ..... what we have seen is both the ALP and the LNP dicking around with super which will cause problems politically.

I can see what the ALP are trying to do politically the last time they got in they did it using Blabber Mouth Rudd with a me-too Small L Liberal strategy to win then introduce a whole pile of nonsense that was the usual ALP stuff a lot even themselves rejected (stuff like the failed cash for clunkers)

At least this time they are being up front but it might play into the LNP's hands, this is a political attack on the so called rich .... that is how will play out, so far the ALP have not sold it very well.



I'm not so sure there is very little gain politically. The last few elections labor has been losing it's traditional supporter base because they haven't been doing enough of this.

I doubt they'll lose to much of their existing vote over this anyway since those most likely to be affected are more likely to have voted liberal anyway. They're not hitting up retirees for more revenue. The retirees pay not one cent more. Anyone so affected by this that it will make their life more difficult, such as your mother in law, will end up with a higher part pension or a full pension, depending on their total income. The fact remains that the greater majority of pensioners will be largely unaffected. The libs attempts to scare pensioners won't work.


My mother in law gets very little from welfare I was just using it as an example of the next generations self funded retirees is growing.
At banks their Wealth Portfolios will not only be bigger then their other portfolios they estimate they will be bigger then all their other portfolios put together.
This is obviously far too much temptation for governments looking for a dime.
Hitting up retirees is very bad optics not only for the retirees but for their families ..... we have power of attorney over her finances .... attacks on anything in this area will be treated as being hostile :-)
There is no plus side politically self funded retirees vote for both sides, my mother-in-law is a left wing conspiracy nutter Luddite type ..... see thinks the Opal card is a tool for governments to monitor you.

The only strategy I can see from the ALP is creating some point of difference ...... they have chosen poorly.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby RightSaidFred » 18 Mar 2018, 15:11

Aussie wrote:
RightSaidFred wrote:
Gordy wrote:
HBS Guy wrote:If you have significant amounts of shares so the dividend imputation means anything real—you won’t even be on the pension after the Libs chucked people off the part pension. They are protecting the very wealthy who have SMSFs.


If you think only the very wealthy are retiring without a pension on super funds whether they be SM or otherwise, you must have a very low threshold of what is wealthy.

Furthermore moving forward, any person who'se worked and saved money into super for their whole working life will be one of the above and many would have budgeted with the above tax law.


Nice post, yes self funded retirees don't like either side dicking around with laws that effect their retirement. Given these people are not a welfare burden to the tax payer there needs to be carrot somewhere if the ALP wants to go after people who dare to succeed and plan for retirement properly good luck to them.

I think BS Shorten will possibly do a Hewson at the next election if he does more of this !


And that is exactly why Taxi Plate Owner self funded retirees are pissed off that Government has interfered with their plans for retirement!


Off topic as usual well done go have a biscuit :-)
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby Aussie » 18 Mar 2018, 15:14

No...it is right on topic......the plans of self funded retirees being stuffed by Government meddling with legislation which existed when they went into a particular retirement plan.

Labor may have to Grandfather this provision.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby johnsmith » 18 Mar 2018, 15:20

RightSaidFred wrote:Hitting up retirees is very bad optics not only for the retirees but for their families .....


but they're not 'hitting up retirees' ... they're just not giving them money thats not theres an more.
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Re: Imputation Credits

Postby Aussie » 18 Mar 2018, 15:34

Lets say:

I own shares in BHP. It makes a trading profit in a year. It has paid corporate tax on that profit. After it has paid that tax.....from what is left...and after making whatever other allowances it needs to for commercial purposes.....it pays out what is known as a franked dividend to me, and I am not required to pay income tax on it.

Before this 'franked' concept came in, I also was taxed on that income, and so it was argued, the Government was double dipping.

So stop that, the 'franked' system was introduced.

Since then, some other tax benefit has been granted to those franked dividends if the shares are part of a self managed super fund.

As I understand it, that other tax benefit is what Labor has in its sights. I can't see the problem.
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