Says it all!

Casual chatting. Guest posting allowed.

Welcome to the various guests visiting here. Why not register? The real PA—a home away from home when OzPol is down.

Hot topic: Handmaid’s Tale



Just post here—don’t need to join.
.

Moderator: johnsmith

Forum rules
The rules for this board are in the Charter of Moderation. Sand Pit is for having fun. Guest posting is allowed here.

Re: Says it all!

Postby mothra » 08 Jul 2018, 20:01

In fact, it just proves that like the rest of the heartless right, you just want it to be someone else's problem.

Not a single fuck to give for actual human beings.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
User avatar
mothra
Duck
 
Posts: 3999
Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 18:47
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby johnsmith » 08 Jul 2018, 20:07

Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:What I can't get around is how we can control numbers without some form of detention.


we can stop creating refugees


In the long term, yes, this is what we should do. That won’t stop people from wanting to migrate for a better life - economic migrants.


They don't come here on boats, risking their very lives because the alternative is certain death.

You know the overwhelming majority of detainees are genuine refugees, yeah?


So, if that's the case, then why are they not content to go to Malaysia or Indonesia?? Because there are economic concerns to migration, in all cases.



I can't believe that after all these years we're still having the same discussions despite answering this same question 1000 times (speaking generally Auggie, not just directed to you).

Malaysia and Indonesia don't recognise refugees. They can never own their home, kids cannot attend school, they (or their kids) can never vote, they can't work (except for the worst jobs for cash where many unscrupulous employers are waiting to rip them off in exchange for servitude). Whilst in the last couple of years Indo has gotten slightly better in it's official position to them, the reality is that in most cases they are treated like second class citizens.
FD.
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
User avatar
johnsmith
Warthog
 
Posts: 4651
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby Auggie » 08 Jul 2018, 20:09

mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
So, if that's the case, then why are they not content to go to Malaysia or Indonesia?? Because there are economic concerns to migration, in all cases.



You have absolutely no idea what awaits them there do you?

Suggest you look into the UN charter we're violating before you continue to embarrass yourself.


I know what the charter says. It says that signatories must guarantee employment, housing, education, etc. It also says that anyone who seeks asylum cannot be considered to have entered illegally.

Being a Refugee is not just about fleeing persecution is it? It's about fleeing persecution AND giving them the chance to live a better life than the one they had before, otherwise a Shia Muslim fleeing persecution in Iraq because he/she is Shia would no longer suffer that persecution if they went to Iran or Azerbaijian (both Shia States). Problem is they're not as great to live in as Australia. Again, economic considerations.

Economic considerations are par and part of the parcel.
It has been demonstrated that no system, not even the most inhuman, can continue to exist without an ideology.
Auggie
Pain in the Butt
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby Auggie » 08 Jul 2018, 20:10

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:What I can't get around is how we can control numbers without some form of detention.


we can stop creating refugees


In the long term, yes, this is what we should do. That won’t stop people from wanting to migrate for a better life - economic migrants.


They don't come here on boats, risking their very lives because the alternative is certain death.

You know the overwhelming majority of detainees are genuine refugees, yeah?


So, if that's the case, then why are they not content to go to Malaysia or Indonesia?? Because there are economic concerns to migration, in all cases.



I can't believe that after all these years we're still having the same discussions despite answering this same question 1000 times (speaking generally Auggie, not just directed to you).

Malaysia and Indonesia don't recognise refugees. They can never own their home, kids cannot attend school, they (or their kids) can never vote, they can't work (except for the worst jobs for cash where many unscrupulous employers are waiting to rip them off in exchange for servitude). Whilst in the last couple of years Indo has gotten slightly better in it's official position to them, the reality is that in most cases they are treated like second class citizens.


So, that's my point. It's not simply about fleeing persecution, is it? It's about fleeing persecution AND having the economic opportunity.
It has been demonstrated that no system, not even the most inhuman, can continue to exist without an ideology.
Auggie
Pain in the Butt
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby johnsmith » 08 Jul 2018, 20:13

Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
So, if that's the case, then why are they not content to go to Malaysia or Indonesia?? Because there are economic concerns to migration, in all cases.



You have absolutely no idea what awaits them there do you?

Suggest you look into the UN charter we're violating before you continue to embarrass yourself.


I know what the charter says. It says that signatories must guarantee employment, housing, education, etc. It also says that anyone who seeks asylum cannot be considered to have entered illegally.

Being a Refugee is not just about fleeing persecution is it? It's about fleeing persecution AND giving them the chance to live a better life than the one they had before, otherwise a Shia Muslim fleeing persecution in Iraq because he/she is Shia would no longer suffer that persecution if they went to Iran or Azerbaijian (both Shia States). Problem is they're not as great to live in as Australia. Again, economic considerations.

Economic considerations are par and part of the parcel.



would you spend quite possibly the next 20 yrs in a country that doesn't recognise your (or your kids) human rights Auggie? Where you can never progress, can't make long term plans? Economics only comes into it in that we need economics to live and progress in life.
FD.
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
User avatar
johnsmith
Warthog
 
Posts: 4651
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby Auggie » 08 Jul 2018, 20:15

mothra wrote:In fact, it just proves that like the rest of the heartless right, you just want it to be someone else's problem.

Not a single fuck to give for actual human beings.

You should be ashamed of yourself.


Ok, Mothra. I'm sure that you and your family and more financially well-off than I am. I'm yet to own my own house, which would help me to set a decent life. Would you be kind enough to give me your house so that I can live in it? In fact, if you could give me $100,000, that'd be great too.
It has been demonstrated that no system, not even the most inhuman, can continue to exist without an ideology.
Auggie
Pain in the Butt
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby johnsmith » 08 Jul 2018, 20:15

Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
we can stop creating refugees


In the long term, yes, this is what we should do. That won’t stop people from wanting to migrate for a better life - economic migrants.


They don't come here on boats, risking their very lives because the alternative is certain death.

You know the overwhelming majority of detainees are genuine refugees, yeah?


So, if that's the case, then why are they not content to go to Malaysia or Indonesia?? Because there are economic concerns to migration, in all cases.



I can't believe that after all these years we're still having the same discussions despite answering this same question 1000 times (speaking generally Auggie, not just directed to you).

Malaysia and Indonesia don't recognise refugees. They can never own their home, kids cannot attend school, they (or their kids) can never vote, they can't work (except for the worst jobs for cash where many unscrupulous employers are waiting to rip them off in exchange for servitude). Whilst in the last couple of years Indo has gotten slightly better in it's official position to them, the reality is that in most cases they are treated like second class citizens.


So, that's my point. It's not simply about fleeing persecution, is it? It's about fleeing persecution AND having the economic opportunity.


you realise some of these refugees spend 20 yrs in camps? It's about LIFE'S OPPORTUNITIES Auggie. The term 'Economic' is used to make them sound like greedy dole bludgers.
FD.
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
User avatar
johnsmith
Warthog
 
Posts: 4651
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby johnsmith » 08 Jul 2018, 20:16

Auggie wrote: Would you be kind enough to give me your house so that I can live in it? In fact, if you could give me $100,000, that'd be great too


Are you implying that refugees are 'given' houses? :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
FD.
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
User avatar
johnsmith
Warthog
 
Posts: 4651
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby mothra » 08 Jul 2018, 20:17

Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:In fact, it just proves that like the rest of the heartless right, you just want it to be someone else's problem.

Not a single fuck to give for actual human beings.

You should be ashamed of yourself.


Ok, Mothra. I'm sure that you and your family and more financially well-off than I am. I'm yet to own my own house, which would help me to set a decent life. Would you be kind enough to give me your house so that I can live in it? In fact, if you could give me $100,000, that'd be great too.



Image
User avatar
mothra
Duck
 
Posts: 3999
Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 18:47
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby Auggie » 08 Jul 2018, 20:19

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
So, if that's the case, then why are they not content to go to Malaysia or Indonesia?? Because there are economic concerns to migration, in all cases.



You have absolutely no idea what awaits them there do you?

Suggest you look into the UN charter we're violating before you continue to embarrass yourself.


I know what the charter says. It says that signatories must guarantee employment, housing, education, etc. It also says that anyone who seeks asylum cannot be considered to have entered illegally.

Being a Refugee is not just about fleeing persecution is it? It's about fleeing persecution AND giving them the chance to live a better life than the one they had before, otherwise a Shia Muslim fleeing persecution in Iraq because he/she is Shia would no longer suffer that persecution if they went to Iran or Azerbaijian (both Shia States). Problem is they're not as great to live in as Australia. Again, economic considerations.

Economic considerations are par and part of the parcel.



would you spend quite possibly the next 20 yrs in a country that doesn't recognise your (or your kids) human rights Auggie? Where you can never progress, can't make long term plans? Economics only comes into it in that we need economics to live and progress in life.


But, presumably, spending that 20 years in that country is better off than where they were, wasn't it?

A refugee = person suffering from persecution because of race, religion, ethnicity. Refugee - persecution = person who is not a refugee. That is a very rationalistic view of the status of a refugee, I agree; but that's not enough - economic considerations are important.
It has been demonstrated that no system, not even the most inhuman, can continue to exist without an ideology.
Auggie
Pain in the Butt
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby Auggie » 08 Jul 2018, 20:20

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote: Would you be kind enough to give me your house so that I can live in it? In fact, if you could give me $100,000, that'd be great too


Are you implying that refugees are 'given' houses? :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl


How about money then? I could do with an additional fortnightly supplement to my income. Would you be willing to provide this to me?? Or don't you care about me?
It has been demonstrated that no system, not even the most inhuman, can continue to exist without an ideology.
Auggie
Pain in the Butt
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby Auggie » 08 Jul 2018, 20:22

Not at all. People want opportunities to work decent job and have access to decent social institutions. Some refugees may receive welfare, but I suspect that the majority actually work for it.
It has been demonstrated that no system, not even the most inhuman, can continue to exist without an ideology.
Auggie
Pain in the Butt
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby Auggie » 08 Jul 2018, 20:24

mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:In fact, it just proves that like the rest of the heartless right, you just want it to be someone else's problem.

Not a single fuck to give for actual human beings.

You should be ashamed of yourself.


Ok, Mothra. I'm sure that you and your family and more financially well-off than I am. I'm yet to own my own house, which would help me to set a decent life. Would you be kind enough to give me your house so that I can live in it? In fact, if you could give me $100,000, that'd be great too.



Image


Well, aren't you a heartless individual! Here I am in need to more money and a better life, and you're making a mockery of it!

Couldn't give a flying fuck about other people.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
It has been demonstrated that no system, not even the most inhuman, can continue to exist without an ideology.
Auggie
Pain in the Butt
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby mothra » 08 Jul 2018, 20:27

Auggie wrote:\
Well, aren't you a heartless individual! Here I am in need to more money and a better life, and you're making a mockery of it!

Couldn't give a flying fuck about other people.

You should be ashamed of yourself.



Absurd. How utterly ridiculous.

And again it becomes clear there is absolutely no point debating with you.
User avatar
mothra
Duck
 
Posts: 3999
Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 18:47
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby Aussie » 08 Jul 2018, 21:09

mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:\
Well, aren't you a heartless individual! Here I am in need to more money and a better life, and you're making a mockery of it!

Couldn't give a flying fuck about other people.

You should be ashamed of yourself.



Absurd. How utterly ridiculous.

And again it becomes clear there is absolutely no point debating with you.


No, you are wrong. He is appropriately pointing this:

In fact, it just proves that like the rest of the heartless right, you just want it to be someone else's problem.

Not a single fuck to give for actual human beings.


......right back at ye.
User avatar
Aussie
Hero of the Soviet Union
 
Posts: 5878
Joined: 13 Mar 2010, 18:25

Re: Says it all!

Postby johnsmith » 08 Jul 2018, 22:08

Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote: Would you be kind enough to give me your house so that I can live in it? In fact, if you could give me $100,000, that'd be great too


Are you implying that refugees are 'given' houses? :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl


How about money then? I could do with an additional fortnightly supplement to my income. Would you be willing to provide this to me?? Or don't you care about me?


You're entitled to unemployment benefits if you need it, where's the problem?
FD.
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
User avatar
johnsmith
Warthog
 
Posts: 4651
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby johnsmith » 08 Jul 2018, 22:09

Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:
So, if that's the case, then why are they not content to go to Malaysia or Indonesia?? Because there are economic concerns to migration, in all cases.



You have absolutely no idea what awaits them there do you?

Suggest you look into the UN charter we're violating before you continue to embarrass yourself.


I know what the charter says. It says that signatories must guarantee employment, housing, education, etc. It also says that anyone who seeks asylum cannot be considered to have entered illegally.

Being a Refugee is not just about fleeing persecution is it? It's about fleeing persecution AND giving them the chance to live a better life than the one they had before, otherwise a Shia Muslim fleeing persecution in Iraq because he/she is Shia would no longer suffer that persecution if they went to Iran or Azerbaijian (both Shia States). Problem is they're not as great to live in as Australia. Again, economic considerations.

Economic considerations are par and part of the parcel.



would you spend quite possibly the next 20 yrs in a country that doesn't recognise your (or your kids) human rights Auggie? Where you can never progress, can't make long term plans? Economics only comes into it in that we need economics to live and progress in life.


But, presumably, spending that 20 years in that country is better off than where they were, wasn't it?

A refugee = person suffering from persecution because of race, religion, ethnicity. Refugee - persecution = person who is not a refugee. That is a very rationalistic view of the status of a refugee, I agree; but that's not enough - economic considerations are important.


tell me auggie, if you jump onto the road to escape being hit bu a pushbike does that mean you're going to spend the next twenty years on the road?
FD.
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
User avatar
johnsmith
Warthog
 
Posts: 4651
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby mothra » 08 Jul 2018, 22:18

Aussie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Auggie wrote:\
Well, aren't you a heartless individual! Here I am in need to more money and a better life, and you're making a mockery of it!

Couldn't give a flying fuck about other people.

You should be ashamed of yourself.



Absurd. How utterly ridiculous.

And again it becomes clear there is absolutely no point debating with you.


No, you are wrong. He is appropriately pointing this:

In fact, it just proves that like the rest of the heartless right, you just want it to be someone else's problem.

Not a single fuck to give for actual human beings.


......right back at ye.


There is no logical (or moral, for that matter) equivalency between me buying Auggie a house and giving him 100K and our treatment of the world's most vulnerable people or indeed our overall response to the global humanitarian crisis.

Jesus Aussie, not you too.
User avatar
mothra
Duck
 
Posts: 3999
Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 18:47
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby Aussie » 08 Jul 2018, 22:48

You said it:

Not a single fuck to give for actual human beings.


You own it.

I assumed you were referring to all actual human beings. I am all in favour of providing assistance to refugees.....just like I am in favour of providing assistance to Aussies in need. You seemed to be emphasising the former at the cost of the latter, and Auggie appropriately called you on it in a direct manner. That's my take on it.
User avatar
Aussie
Hero of the Soviet Union
 
Posts: 5878
Joined: 13 Mar 2010, 18:25

Re: Says it all!

Postby johnsmith » 08 Jul 2018, 23:08

Aussie wrote:You said it:

Not a single fuck to give for actual human beings.


You own it.

I assumed you were referring to all actual human beings. I am all in favour of providing assistance to refugees.....just like I am in favour of providing assistance to Aussies in need. You seemed to be emphasising the former at the cost of the latter, and Auggie appropriately called you on it in a direct manner. That's my take on it.



try to keep it in context aussie. She was CLEARLY referring to our treatment of refugees. Only a complete idiot would compare calls for the better treatment of refugees to being given a house
FD.
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
User avatar
johnsmith
Warthog
 
Posts: 4651
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby mothra » 09 Jul 2018, 06:30

Aussie wrote:You said it:

Not a single fuck to give for actual human beings.


You own it.

I assumed you were referring to all actual human beings. I am all in favour of providing assistance to refugees.....just like I am in favour of providing assistance to Aussies in need. You seemed to be emphasising the former at the cost of the latter, and Auggie appropriately called you on it in a direct manner. That's my take on it.


So, if i don't buy Auggie a house and give him 100K, i'm a hypocrite?

Genius.

Aussie, i don't want any more for refugees and asylum seekers than i want for Auggie.
User avatar
mothra
Duck
 
Posts: 3999
Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 18:47
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby Auggie » 09 Jul 2018, 18:34

mothra wrote:
Aussie wrote:You said it:

Not a single fuck to give for actual human beings.


You own it.

I assumed you were referring to all actual human beings. I am all in favour of providing assistance to refugees.....just like I am in favour of providing assistance to Aussies in need. You seemed to be emphasising the former at the cost of the latter, and Auggie appropriately called you on it in a direct manner. That's my take on it.


So, if i don't buy Auggie a house and give him 100K, i'm a hypocrite?

Genius.

Aussie, i don't want any more for refugees and asylum seekers than i want for Auggie.


Temporary housing/boarding whilst they wait for their visa and claim to be assessed? How long is that? 6 months to 1 year rent free accommodation??

Access to welfare benefits (even if only temporary when they’re getting started) when neither they nor their parents have contributed as a taxpayer previously?
It has been demonstrated that no system, not even the most inhuman, can continue to exist without an ideology.
Auggie
Pain in the Butt
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby johnsmith » 09 Jul 2018, 20:11

Auggie wrote:Temporary housing/boarding whilst they wait for their visa and claim to be assessed? How long is that? 6 months to 1 year rent free accommodation??

Access to welfare benefits (even if only temporary when they’re getting started) when neither they nor their parents have contributed as a taxpayer previously?


they are given temporary emergency housing for a period of 6 months. You can apply for it too, it's not limited to asylum seekers. They cannot get the dole unless they have been waiting for a protection visa for at least 6 months, and after that they are given less than 90% of the unemployment benefits awarded to anyone else. Anything they do get over and above that is usually provided charities.
FD.
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
User avatar
johnsmith
Warthog
 
Posts: 4651
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby Auggie » 09 Jul 2018, 20:39

johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:Temporary housing/boarding whilst they wait for their visa and claim to be assessed? How long is that? 6 months to 1 year rent free accommodation??

Access to welfare benefits (even if only temporary when they’re getting started) when neither they nor their parents have contributed as a taxpayer previously?


they are given temporary emergency housing for a period of 6 months. You can apply for it too, it's not limited to asylum seekers. They cannot get the dole unless they have been waiting for a protection visa for at least 6 months, and after that they are given less than 90% of the unemployment benefits awarded to anyone else. Anything they do get over and above that is usually provided charities.


That's now after they've been processed at Nauru. Your plan would be to have them processed in Australia, during which whole period they would be in temporary accommodation for more than 6 months. Some people spend years in detention.
It has been demonstrated that no system, not even the most inhuman, can continue to exist without an ideology.
Auggie
Pain in the Butt
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 18:05
spamone: Animal

Re: Says it all!

Postby johnsmith » 09 Jul 2018, 20:46

Auggie wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Auggie wrote:Temporary housing/boarding whilst they wait for their visa and claim to be assessed? How long is that? 6 months to 1 year rent free accommodation??

Access to welfare benefits (even if only temporary when they’re getting started) when neither they nor their parents have contributed as a taxpayer previously?


they are given temporary emergency housing for a period of 6 months. You can apply for it too, it's not limited to asylum seekers. They cannot get the dole unless they have been waiting for a protection visa for at least 6 months, and after that they are given less than 90% of the unemployment benefits awarded to anyone else. Anything they do get over and above that is usually provided charities.


That's now after they've been processed at Nauru. Your plan would be to have them processed in Australia, during which whole period they would be in temporary accommodation for more than 6 months. Some people spend years in detention.


If they were processed in Aust. they would get 6 months of emergency housing, after that they're on their own. It's typically NGO's or the asylum seekers themselves that cover the gap.
FD.
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
User avatar
johnsmith
Warthog
 
Posts: 4651
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 22:39
spamone: Animal

PreviousNext

Return to Sand Pit

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests