On the news....

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On the news....

Postby Lols » 17 Jan 2020, 09:29

There are some interesting news of late, just wish I could find out more or a link, but last night was about 2 burglars with guns breaking into someone’s home, only to surprised to be met with the owner with a gun which he fired.
Well, the owner was handcuffed and taken in by police.
How the fuck so?
I wish I could find more on this on the internet.
If a person is confronted in their own home in the middle of the night with masked gunmen, where is that persons right to defend their self, their family, their home?
Discuss please. (If anyone can find this story online please direct me to it)
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themsleves and wiser people so full of doubts" ~ Bertrand Russell
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Re: On the news....

Postby DonDeeHippy » 17 Jan 2020, 09:59

Lols wrote:There are some interesting news of late, just wish I could find out more or a link, but last night was about 2 burglars with guns breaking into someone’s home, only to surprised to be met with the owner with a gun which he fired.
Well, the owner was handcuffed and taken in by police.
How the fuck so?
I wish I could find more on this on the internet.
If a person is confronted in their own home in the middle of the night with masked gunmen, where is that persons right to defend their self, their family, their home?
Discuss please. (If anyone can find this story online please direct me to it)

Australia is weird, you cant buy a gun for self defence... If you have a gun though and you use it for self defence your ok.... :purple
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Re: On the news....

Postby Lols » 17 Jan 2020, 12:00

DonDeeHippy wrote:
Lols wrote:There are some interesting news of late, just wish I could find out more or a link, but last night was about 2 burglars with guns breaking into someone’s home, only to surprised to be met with the owner with a gun which he fired.
Well, the owner was handcuffed and taken in by police.
How the fuck so?
I wish I could find more on this on the internet.
If a person is confronted in their own home in the middle of the night with masked gunmen, where is that persons right to defend their self, their family, their home?
Discuss please. (If anyone can find this story online please direct me to it)

Australia is weird, you cant buy a gun for self defence... If you have a gun though and you use it for self defence your ok.... :purple

Nope, not even allowed to use in self defence as the home owner was handcuffed for doing so.
It was all on their surveillance inside the house how the event transpired with burglars etc
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Re: On the news....

Postby DonDeeHippy » 17 Jan 2020, 14:33

Lols wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:
Lols wrote:There are some interesting news of late, just wish I could find out more or a link, but last night was about 2 burglars with guns breaking into someone’s home, only to surprised to be met with the owner with a gun which he fired.
Well, the owner was handcuffed and taken in by police.
How the fuck so?
I wish I could find more on this on the internet.
If a person is confronted in their own home in the middle of the night with masked gunmen, where is that persons right to defend their self, their family, their home?
Discuss please. (If anyone can find this story online please direct me to it)

Australia is weird, you cant buy a gun for self defence... If you have a gun though and you use it for self defence your ok.... :purple

Nope, not even allowed to use in self defence as the home owner was handcuffed for doing so.
It was all on their surveillance inside the house how the event transpired with burglars etc

It's not in the ABC news, or anywhere on a search with Google..... There was a rehash of a burglary that happened 20 years ago that sounds like what your describing that was put up just a few days ago..... Until we get more facts it's hard to tell...
We talked about this one earlier in the year while debating guns in the USA

https://www.firearmownersunited.com/201 ... e-invader/

NT man cleared after self-defence shooting of axe-wielding home invader

“Famous outback whip maker Mick Denigan has walked free from court after a jury decided he was justified in shooting a man who confronted him with an axe on his property. The 54-year-old was found not guilty by an NT Supreme Court jury of unlawfully causing serious harm by shooting Thomas McIntyre, 44, in the leg at his remote Darwin River property shortly before midnight on February 23 last year.

Mr Denigan is well-known in the Top End as a Crocodile Dundee figure through his Mick’s Whips and crocodile catching and skin company and is seen on TV and at markets teaching people to crack a whip.

:purple
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Re: On the news....

Postby Lols » 17 Jan 2020, 15:00

Yes just happened. Was on news with comment “armed burglars got a surprise with owner having his own gun” etc and showed the video from surveillance inside house.
I was disturbed that the owner was in trouble for firing his gun in defence.
It was either channel 10, 9 or 7. I think the news after The Chase finished.
Point is, self defence seems a weak defence now when confronted with intruders in your home?
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Re: On the news....

Postby SethBullock » 17 Jan 2020, 15:22

Lols wrote:Yes just happened. Was on news with comment “armed burglars got a surprise with owner having his own gun” etc and showed the video from surveillance inside house.
I was disturbed that the owner was in trouble for firing his gun in defence.
It was either channel 10, 9 or 7. I think the news after The Chase finished.
Point is, self defence seems a weak defence now when confronted with intruders in your home?


I didn't find it in a google search either.

Anyone else find this report?

When armed burglars break into an occupied house, and the victims respond with gunfire, the victims should not be in trouble. They certainly wouldn't be in trouble in the U.S.
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Re: On the news....

Postby johnsmith » 17 Jan 2020, 15:50

Lols wrote:Well, the owner was handcuffed and taken in by police.
How the fuck so?


most likely taken in for questioning. They'll investigate and if it in fact was self defense, he will be released.
FD.
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Re: On the news....

Postby Lols » 17 Jan 2020, 16:27

I’m still trying to find it, I think this story totally overshadowed by the news of the baby tot left in hot car for 5 hours while mum played the pokies, and bub in serious condition.
Anyway like you wrote John, he probably went in for questioning RE firearm related incident, until cleared with cctv showing it was self defence.
Still annoyed I can’t find it anywhere in news archives! :roll
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Re: On the news....

Postby SethBullock » 17 Jan 2020, 17:37

johnsmith wrote:
Lols wrote:Well, the owner was handcuffed and taken in by police.
How the fuck so?


most likely taken in for questioning. They'll investigate and if it in fact was self defense, he will be released.


In America, you don't handcuff someone and bring them in for questioning. We may invite a suspect to voluntarily come to a police department for further questioning.

But when you slap handcuffs on someone and take them in involuntarily, it is upon probable cause that the person has committed a crime, and because the police are prepared to actually charge the person with a crime. And in America, homicide is not automatically illegal. It is illegal if it is without justification or in the commission of a crime. If the evidence shows strong evidence of homicide in legitimate self defense, an arrest does not happen. A crucial part of making an arrest for homicide is to have evidence that the homicide was not committed in legitimate self defense.

As one who did law enforcement as a career, it just seems completely foreign to me to arrest someone "for questioning".

If an armed person breaks into your home with the intent of committing a crime, and the homeowner shoots them, the homeowner should be regarded as the victim, not the suspect. To victimize the homeowner a second time by slapping them in cuffs and taking him or her away seems antithetical to "serving and protecting" the community and victims of crime. I just cannot wrap my head around that at all.

I get the feeling that you guys just accept that as normal, and I find that very disturbing.

In spite of our flaws and our issues, I'm glad to be an American when I hear stories like this - being hauled away "for questioning".
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Re: On the news....

Postby johnsmith » 17 Jan 2020, 17:40

SethBullock wrote:In America, you don't handcuff someone and bring them in for questioning


not even if they've just killed someone?

SethBullock wrote: We may invite a suspect to voluntarily come to a police department for further questioning.


and if they decline the invitation, the cuffs come out .... right? :bgrin
FD.
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Re: On the news....

Postby Lols » 17 Jan 2020, 18:02

https://youtu.be/zf8Q6goBWnQ

I think I found it but was in recent news. Says published 16 jan 2020

So now these blokes in their own home are behind bars for self defence. It clearly shows in the video the guy sitting on the step having a smoke, when 3 armed men came and terrorised him.
I can’t get over that he is behind bars for shooting a firearm.

This is the story...I found it! :h
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Re: On the news....

Postby SethBullock » 17 Jan 2020, 18:40

johnsmith wrote:
SethBullock wrote:In America, you don't handcuff someone and bring them in for questioning


not even if they've just killed someone?


We may arrest them for a crime and bring them in. Or, we may invite them to come in for questioning. We do not arrest people because we want to question them.

SethBullock wrote: We may invite a suspect to voluntarily come to a police department for further questioning.


johnsmith wrote:and if they decline the invitation, the cuffs come out .... right? :bgrin


Not without probable cause that they committed a crime. If they decline to answer questions, that's their right in America. The fact that a person chooses not to answer questions may not be counted as evidence against them either. It cannot factor into the probable cause.
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Re: On the news....

Postby johnsmith » 17 Jan 2020, 19:27

SethBullock wrote:Not without probable cause that they committed a crime.


in this case, they had a corpse.
FD.
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Re: On the news....

Postby Lols » 17 Jan 2020, 23:31

This story of a firearm used in self defence, no one was hurt, killed, and no corpses. The 3 masked gunmen are still at large, but these blokes that were attacked, are in jail and for what?
Trouble came to them and they reacted as anyone in that situation could
If there’s a gun to be grabbed to defend myself, I would have done so also, which means I would be charged?
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Re: On the news....

Postby pinkeye » 18 Jan 2020, 00:10

Lols wrote:This story of a firearm used in self defence, no one was hurt, killed, and no corpses. The 3 masked gunmen are still at large, but these blokes that were attacked, are in jail and for what?
Trouble came to them and they reacted as anyone in that situation could
If there’s a gun to be grabbed to defend myself, I would have done so also, which means I would be charged?


YES the Police here would charge you.
I find it incomprehensible that I cannot act to save my own life because I break the Law.? I really do BUT...

This is typical, here in Australia. The authorities are terrified of their citizens. :roll

The POLICE are supposed to be your answer... doesn't matter, if you actually got a chance to call for help, that they might be at least 20 minutes away.
No Seth, here in Australia we are not supposed to take the Law into our own hands. We are expected to allow the crims their rampage, and WAIT for POLICE.
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Re: On the news....

Postby SethBullock » 18 Jan 2020, 02:42

johnsmith wrote:
SethBullock wrote:Not without probable cause that they committed a crime.


in this case, they had a corpse.


Apparently there was no corpse in this case. But just for discussion, a corpse is not, in an off itself, probable cause that a crime was committed. To make it a crime, there would have to be evidence that the killing was not in self defense. And, for it to be a crime, the force used to defend would have to be disproportionate - unreasonable. If it was necessary to shoot to keep the intruders from killing you, that would be reasonable. On the other hand, if a person merely gets mad and slaps you across the face, pulling out a gun and shooting them would be unreasonable and unjustifiable.
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Re: On the news....

Postby pinkeye » 18 Jan 2020, 03:24

AGREE.

I might attempt to slap them back,, or , maybe not, if he was bigger and stronger and crueller than me.
I'd just get beaten down if I protested. (that IS what happens)

So THEN we look at other facts .

How long have I been being slapped in the face , for ...? What else have I failed at ... that my (supposed friend, love ?) is so entitled in their own minds..? that they can slap you down... ???
LAW applies to everybody, but … the legal justice system is biased..... Male-dominated from Day ONE, only NOW can some women act to free themselves. But even NOW, they are much more likely to be charged with criminal offences by male justice..... U cannot deny it.

NO SETH..
Black/White … not so simple as you propose, even having been a law enforcement officer, or perhaps because you were there, your views are necessarily skewed by the requirements of your job.

The nuances weren't for YOU to decide.
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Re: On the news....

Postby SethBullock » 18 Jan 2020, 06:13

pinkeye wrote:AGREE.

I might attempt to slap them back,, or , maybe not, if he was bigger and stronger and crueller than me.
I'd just get beaten down if I protested. (that IS what happens)

So THEN we look at other facts .

How long have I been being slapped in the face , for ...? What else have I failed at ... that my (supposed friend, love ?) is so entitled in their own minds..? that they can slap you down... ???
LAW applies to everybody, but … the legal justice system is biased..... Male-dominated from Day ONE, only NOW can some women act to free themselves. But even NOW, they are much more likely to be charged with criminal offences by male justice..... U cannot deny it.

NO SETH..
Black/White … not so simple as you propose, even having been a law enforcement officer, or perhaps because you were there, your views are necessarily skewed by the requirements of your job.

The nuances weren't for YOU to decide.


Pinkeye, it DOES matter how much bigger and stronger an attacker is than the victim. The example I gave of the slap was assuming that the two people were of equal size and strength. In that case, people cannot just shoot other people. But ...

There is no expectation in the U.S. that a 125 lb woman must take a beating from an unarmed 200 lb man if she is armed. In cases like that, if the woman is armed, she may shoot her attacker to prevent being beaten, raped, or killed. It is reasonable because it is her only real defense. A gun is the only thing that can reliably equalize her against a man. In the U.S. the legal standard for shooting another person is that the shooter had an objectively reasonable belief that the other person was going to cause death or serious physical injury.

So I agree with you that these questions are not always black and white. A claim of self defense must be objectively reasonable, and that leaves a lot of room to look at ALL the circumstances and then make that judgement.

A corpse is not proof of murder. A claim of self defense is not a free pass. It all depends on all of the circumstances.

Seth
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Re: On the news....

Postby HBS Guy » 18 Jan 2020, 08:30

This is some gang related violence if you ask me. Rifles are not that abundant on the streets. That may be why the person attacked by the three is in gaol.
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