Strip-searching "abusive"?

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Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 19:54

Strip-searching female prisoners 'abusive', says ombudsman
Practice is only one of Deborah Glass’s 125 recommendations not accepted by Victorian government

Female prisoners in Victoria are still subject to “abusive” routine strip searches, a state government watchdog says.

The Victorian ombudsman, Deborah Glass, said the government has failed to adopt a recommendation from her 2015 report into the prison system that called for an end to the searches.

“Why has the government not accepted my recommendation to stop the abusive practice of routinely strip-searching women prisoners – in fact, the only recommendation out of 125 not accepted?” she asked on Wednesday.

The justice department said in the report that while it recognises strip searches are an “intrusive” practice, it is considering alternatives, including reducing the number of searches.

Glass also found it “troubling” that prison numbers and the cost to the public are at record highs, with each prisoner now costing the state an average of $127,000 a year.

The prison population has soared by 20% since the 2015 report. Almost half of all prisoners released reoffend and return to prison within two years.

“As the government tightens sentencing and bail conditions, and builds more prisons, there is no indication that these trends are likely to change,” Glass said.

In 2015, 24% of prisoners were on remand without having been convicted, but now that figure is more than a third.

The number of female prisoners is growing rapidly, when many are also victims of crime or abuse themselves, she said.

“Considering how few are charged with violent offences, why are so many on remand?” Glass asked.

But most troubling was the rate of criminals reoffending, which remains around 44%, from a low of 33.7% in 2010, Glass said.

“I said in 2015 that building more prisons was not making us safer - over 99% of prisoners will be released one day,” she said.

“We need to do more to ensure they do not come out only to reoffend and return, at the cost both to public safety and the public purse.

“But we have not yet seen a greater focus on a whole-of-government approach to reducing offending.”

Glass said the problem would not be solved until there was more focus on the causes of crime, many of which had origins in early childhood, education, health, housing and employment.

“If the hardline US state of Texas can reduce both crime and spending on prisons by diverting resources to rehabilitation, surely so can Victoria,” she said.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jul/04/strip-searching-female-prisoners-abusive-says-ombudsman
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 19:55

Only abusive for women? Not men too?

I think it certainly is ... for all of us.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby Aussie » 04 Jul 2018, 20:00

So.....the topic was strip searching which rated less that 25% mention in that article.

I see zero problem with a strip search provided it is done by same sex people and there are many same sex witnesses.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 20:02

Aussie wrote:So.....the topic was strip searching which rated less that 25% mention in that article.

I see zero problem with a strip search provided it is done by same sex people and there are many same sex witnesses.


Why isn't it rape?
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby Aussie » 04 Jul 2018, 20:08

mothra wrote:
Aussie wrote:So.....the topic was strip searching which rated less that 25% mention in that article.

I see zero problem with a strip search provided it is done by same sex people and there are many same sex witnesses.


Why isn't it rape?


Strip search does not equal cavity searches. If it does......yes 'rape' in layman terms but not in legal terms. I'd expect there are many levels of enquiry before it got to the stage of actual digital examination, including eg, X-Ray.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby johnsmith » 04 Jul 2018, 20:11

i also don't disagree with strip searches. Especially in prisons.

Whilst prisoners continue to hide contraband in their orifices, be they male or female, then the prisoners can't complain when the orifices are searched.

They bring this upon themselves.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 20:12

Aussie wrote:
mothra wrote:
Aussie wrote:So.....the topic was strip searching which rated less that 25% mention in that article.

I see zero problem with a strip search provided it is done by same sex people and there are many same sex witnesses.


Why isn't it rape?


Strip search does not equal cavity searches. If it does......yes 'rape' in layman terms but not in legal terms. I'd expect there are many levels of enquiry before it got to the stage of actual digital examination, including eg, X-Ray.


Before you enter prison, you are not cavity searched?
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby johnsmith » 04 Jul 2018, 20:12

mothra wrote:Why isn't it rape?



they gave up their right to consent or not when they committed the crime that led to them being in jail.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 20:14

johnsmith wrote:i also don't disagree with strip searches. Especially in prisons.

Whilst prisoners continue to hide contraband in their orifices, be they male or female, then the prisoners can't complain when the orifices are searched.

They bring this upon themselves.


Who brings it on themselves? The vast majority who don't smuggle contraband?

Or are you content to think of people in prison as a collective "they" with little or no rights to humaneness?
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 20:16

johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:Why isn't it rape?



they gave up their right to consent or not when they committed the crime that led to them being in jail.


You know what remand is, yeah?

And which crimes in particular do you think warrant rape? Mental health issues perhaps? Drug addiction? Driving without a licence?
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby johnsmith » 04 Jul 2018, 20:17

mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:i also don't disagree with strip searches. Especially in prisons.

Whilst prisoners continue to hide contraband in their orifices, be they male or female, then the prisoners can't complain when the orifices are searched.

They bring this upon themselves.


Who brings it on themselves? The vast majority who don't smuggle contraband?

Or are you content to think of people in prison as a collective "they" with little or no rights to humaneness?


I'm content enough to accept that if prisoners gave as much thought to their fellow humans as you do, they probably wouldn't be in there and wouldn't need to worry about it.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby johnsmith » 04 Jul 2018, 20:19

mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:Why isn't it rape?



they gave up their right to consent or not when they committed the crime that led to them being in jail.


You know what remand is, yeah?

And which crimes in particular do you think warrant rape? Mental health issues perhaps? Drug addiction? Driving without a licence?


I don't agree that it's rape and no amount of jumping up and down will convince me otherwise. Jails are tough. You aren't meant to enjoy it. If you don't like it, don't break the law.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 20:22

johnsmith wrote:I'm content enough to accept that if prisoners gave as much thought to their fellow humans as you do, they probably wouldn't be in there and wouldn't need to worry about it.


You know better than that, John. There's a million reasons to be in jail, none of which are minimised or resolved by demonising the people unfortunate enough to be in there.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 20:24

johnsmith wrote:I don't agree that it's rape and no amount of jumping up and down will convince me otherwise. Jails are tough. You aren't meant to enjoy it. If you don't like it, don't break the law.


I don't "jump up and down" but no amount of your "jumping up and down" will convince me it is not rape ... so we must agree to disagree.

You did however fail to address any of my scenarios. Bit trickier when you actually thresh it out, yeah?
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby Aussie » 04 Jul 2018, 20:36

If someone is plucked off the street under arrest and bunged in the Watchouse pending next day appearance in Court to be formally charged...no need for a cavity search. A good and thorough frisking, yes. They have had no time to prepare.

But.....some person on bail, then in Court and about to be sentenced and looking right at a jail term....if they get jail.....sure, strip search at least, and I'd agree even with cavity.

What's the problem? Surely it is relevant that nasty stuff not be allowed to be taken into Prisons via arseholes etc?
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby johnsmith » 04 Jul 2018, 20:45

mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:I don't agree that it's rape and no amount of jumping up and down will convince me otherwise. Jails are tough. You aren't meant to enjoy it. If you don't like it, don't break the law.


I don't "jump up and down" but no amount of your "jumping up and down" will convince me it is not rape ... so we must agree to disagree.

You did however fail to address any of my scenarios. Bit trickier when you actually thresh it out, yeah?


I didn't address your scenario because I didn't want the topic to become about something else. If you'd prefer I did fine, lets address them then-

Mental health issues - of course they have mental health issues. Sane people don't typically break the law. That doesn't excuse the fact that you broke the law

Drug addiction - drugs are illegal. You are breaking the law. If people willingly break the law in order to feed their habits, then strip searches are fairly light as far as their punishments go. One stat I saw had at least 50% of prisoners in jail for drug related crime. You can argue that some of the offenses should not be a crime, but whilst they are the laws should be adhered to.

Driving without a license - is illegal. If they don't have a license it's often because they can't drive, or have LOST their right to drive because they are unsafe.Also, people driving without a license only end up in jail as a last resort. They have to get caught driving several times before that happens. If you are willing to get behind the wheel of a one ton+ machine and risk the lives of other road users, despite being warned multiple times, then you shouldn't whinge about being searched.




It's really not difficult. If you break the law and end up in jail, you lose your right to complain. Your reasons for breaking the law are between you, your lawyer and a jury. Until then, the consequences are what they are. If you don't like it, don't break the law. I'm pretty sure the victims of the crimes these prisoners commit would prefer to not have been robbed or assaulted as well, but the prisoners didn't give a fuck about their rights.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby johnsmith » 04 Jul 2018, 20:48

Aussie wrote:If someone is plucked off the street under arrest and bunged in the Watchouse pending next day appearance in Court to be formally charged...no need for a cavity search. A good and thorough frisking, yes. They have had no time to prepare.


I'm reasonably certain that people in the watch house aren't cavity searched unless the police have been given a valid reason for a cavity search.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 20:49

Quite cavalier with humans with very different variables to you, both of you. It's disheartening.

In my experience, there but for the grace of the gods go i. I don't get the "us and themism".
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby johnsmith » 04 Jul 2018, 20:51

mothra wrote:Quite cavalier with humans with very different variables to you, both of you. It's disheartening.

In my experience, there but for the grace of the gods go i. I don't get the "us and themism".


Not as cavalier as they are towards their victims
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 20:54

johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:Quite cavalier with humans with very different variables to you, both of you. It's disheartening.

In my experience, there but for the grace of the gods go i. I don't get the "us and themism".


Not as cavalier as they are towards their victims


Oh get you're hand off it. You sound like a ACA viewer.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby johnsmith » 04 Jul 2018, 20:56

mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:Quite cavalier with humans with very different variables to you, both of you. It's disheartening.

In my experience, there but for the grace of the gods go i. I don't get the "us and themism".


Not as cavalier as they are towards their victims


Oh get you're hand off it. You sound like a ACA viewer.


I've no idea what they sound like. But I have little compassion for people who chose to break the law.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby Aussie » 04 Jul 2018, 20:56

mothra wrote:Quite cavalier with humans with very different variables to you, both of you. It's disheartening.

In my experience, there but for the grace of the gods go i. I don't get the "us and themism".


If you were in that position what sort of search of you would you accept as reasonable?
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 20:57

johnsmith wrote:
I've no idea what they sound like. But I have little compassion for people who chose to break the law.



You had compassion the other day for the 100% Aboriginal youth detention rate.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby mothra » 04 Jul 2018, 20:59

Aussie wrote:
mothra wrote:Quite cavalier with humans with very different variables to you, both of you. It's disheartening.

In my experience, there but for the grace of the gods go i. I don't get the "us and themism".


If you were in that position what sort of search of you would you accept as reasonable?


I would say anything but strip and cavity searches.
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Re: Strip-searching "abusive"?

Postby Aussie » 04 Jul 2018, 21:02

mothra wrote:
Aussie wrote:
mothra wrote:Quite cavalier with humans with very different variables to you, both of you. It's disheartening.

In my experience, there but for the grace of the gods go i. I don't get the "us and themism".


If you were in that position what sort of search of you would you accept as reasonable?


I would say anything but strip and cavity searches.


Why? Crims do try to smuggle stuff into prison. You can't deny that, and you can't deny the right of authority to prevent it.
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