Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Kunning » 24 Jun 2018, 00:45

mothra wrote:
Kunning wrote:
No, but many of the things they're calling rape and abuse these days don't stack up.


I do know what you mean. I've made the same point but perhaps from a slightly different perspective.

I don't, for example think that next-day regret should weigh the same as being violently raped but i think it's important we open dialogue about what consent is and what it isn't.

What society is asking us to do is to measure our impact, principally on women but on men too. It's a bit of a new one and is being met with degrees of resistance. This is not helped by calling young lads rapists after somebody had too many Bicardi Cruisers.

And i object unilaterally on this. I think it unfair to men and i think it sends the message we women are porcelain. Like much social change, a reasonable consideration is being discredited by the over-enthusiastic.


Right on. And you've just articulated what Greer is, in her own way, getting at.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby mothra » 24 Jun 2018, 00:59

Kunning wrote:
mothra wrote:
Kunning wrote:
No, but many of the things they're calling rape and abuse these days don't stack up.


I do know what you mean. I've made the same point but perhaps from a slightly different perspective.

I don't, for example think that next-day regret should weigh the same as being violently raped but i think it's important we open dialogue about what consent is and what it isn't.

What society is asking us to do is to measure our impact, principally on women but on men too. It's a bit of a new one and is being met with degrees of resistance. This is not helped by calling young lads rapists after somebody had too many Bicardi Cruisers.

And i object unilaterally on this. I think it unfair to men and i think it sends the message we women are porcelain. Like much social change, a reasonable consideration is being discredited by the over-enthusiastic.




Right on. And you've just articulated what Greer is, in her own way, getting at.



No. Greer is being singularly insensitive and offensive ... although i expect you will counter with there not being much wrong with that in itself but hear me out.

Greer is brilliant but has succumbed to an overwhelming arrogance. She believes that because she has made connections that to her appear obvious, she is in a position of intellectual authority. For example, she herself was violently raped as a young women, black eye and all, but she claims she wasn't really hurt. She got over it. So what's the big deal?

Well, the deal can be so big for somen they kill themselves. Some who survive never recover. It can rip apart families. Germaine doesn't account for other people's views about the sovereignty of their own bodies ... and the weight sex carries to them. Not to mention being totally overpowered.

She is a model of autonomy and empowerment. I respect her greatly in many ways ... but she needs to quit belittling people who's emotional, psychological and spiritual ideas are not up to her standards.

Furthermore, and more importantly, she trivialised rape. There would be a great many people happy to hear that the great feminist icon says rape is okay.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Kunning » 24 Jun 2018, 01:00

mothra wrote:
Kunning wrote:
mothra wrote:And i'm a little taken aback at your analysis of the 15 year old girl. There is something clearly very wrong there.


She turns up to hospitals at least once a week claiming she's pregnant. They tuck her in, give her lunch, and give her a whole lot of pointless tests.

She gets into fights with her friends, they go to defend themselves, and she calls the police to have them charged for assault.

The police usually neglect to press charges due to lack of evidence, but they ALWAYS put an AVO on the friend. She then hangs out with them and they get locked up for breaching the AVO. She laughs at that.

I call her on her krap in the nicest possible way, so she's a tad suspicious of me. She has a moderate intellectual disability, but she's sharper than anyone gives her credit for. She's also horny and desperate for love. Some poor, dumb 24 year-old has lay-byed an engagement ring for her. He'll be the next to go down.

The way some people talk about this girl being exploited is disgusting. She's exploiting everyone, and everybody knows. We're all just too powerless to stop it.

The ambulance have to take her, the hospital have to treat her. The uniforms have to turn up and do the AVOs. The Sexual Assault units have to do their thing. Everybody knows she's talking krap. She badly assaulted her mother, and the judge had to let her off.

She even got an ALO civil lawyer out of that one to get her onto Centrelink benefits and fight for her rights. Anyone who gets in her way is threatened, pushed aside, then charged.

Do you really think there's something wrong with this analysis, Mother? I'd love to hear an alternative take.


Well, i don't look at it as an analysis, i l'm looking at is as a case study upon which my analysis would be BPD with almost definite childhood trauma. Any self-harming, aside from the obvious?

And they're always fun to work with. May the gods go with you.

But i would say that she is screaming out in pain and uses the feeling of being wanted sexually as an anodyne. I would say she has zero self-worth. The dramas with her friends sound very much like poor socialisation and the distorted view that negative attention equals that more positive. The more impact she can make, the "happier" she is ... although you and i both know she's miserable. That of course helps nobody in her path, to who her behaviour is manifestly unfair.

I would say the first step towards getting her to chill the fuck out will come about when someone truly understands her ... and she will make that as difficult as possible.


All true. Her biggest fear is being held to account for her lies. And do you know?

She never is - by anyone. Too hard. The grown ups have to play by her rules.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby mothra » 24 Jun 2018, 01:04

Kunning wrote:All true. Her biggest fear is being held to account for her lies. And do you know?

She never is - by anyone. Too hard. The grown ups have to play by her rules.


Is she in care?
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Kunning » 24 Jun 2018, 01:15

Personally, I think we need to stop blaming things for suicide. Rape doesn't cause suicide. War doesn't cause suicide. Online bullying or not being allowed to marry your same-sex partner doesn't cause it either.

Tying a belt round your neck and letting go causes suicide. Michael Hutchence suicided, and he couldn't blame anything at all.

I'm not being unsympathetic, but suicide is someone killing themselves.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Kunning » 24 Jun 2018, 01:16

mothra wrote:
Kunning wrote:All true. Her biggest fear is being held to account for her lies. And do you know?

She never is - by anyone. Too hard. The grown ups have to play by her rules.


Is she in care?


Sorry, Mother, but I can't give out any more details. You're onto it though.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby mothra » 24 Jun 2018, 01:20

Kunning wrote:Personally, I think we need to stop blaming things for suicide. Rape doesn't cause suicide. War doesn't cause suicide. Online bullying or not being allowed to marry your same-sex partner doesn't cause it either.

Tying a belt round your neck and letting go causes suicide. Michael Hutchence suicided, and he couldn't blame anything at all.

I'm not being unsympathetic, but suicide is someone killing themselves.


Now i didn't say "cause" but i kinda get where you're coming from. Suicide is the ultimate self-harm. Self-harm is usually inflicted to mask other pain and exert control. It is important to consider the variables that contributed to a person feeling that much pain and powerlessness.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby mothra » 24 Jun 2018, 01:23

Kunning wrote:
mothra wrote:
Kunning wrote:All true. Her biggest fear is being held to account for her lies. And do you know?

She never is - by anyone. Too hard. The grown ups have to play by her rules.


Is she in care?


Sorry, Mother, but I can't give out any more details. You're onto it though.


I can't recommend Headspace highly enough. I've seen them save some pretty far gone specimens.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Kunning » 24 Jun 2018, 02:01

mothra wrote:
Kunning wrote:
mothra wrote:
Kunning wrote:All true. Her biggest fear is being held to account for her lies. And do you know?

She never is - by anyone. Too hard. The grown ups have to play by her rules.


Is she in care?


Sorry, Mother, but I can't give out any more details. You're onto it though.


I can't recommend Headspace highly enough. I've seen them save some pretty far gone specimens.


I've never had a teenager do counselling, and this one's no different.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby DonDeeHippy » 24 Jun 2018, 08:11

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/the-attention-seeking-woman-who-falsely-accused-15-men-of-rape/news-story/b3bcd1f5dacc0029239af404475d1509
This story seams very close to the one your saying.

Your saying police have not seen a pattern here, or the mentally challenged men's family haven't protected their own. Its sounds more like a ethics scenario to me.
I could just imagine the cops when she comes in the 4th time or more , about being raped by a mentally challenged bloke... ohh that sounds legit well just do the paperwork.
Plus having a shitload a dvo's out too..... there would be a full investigation happening.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby johnsmith » 24 Jun 2018, 09:35

mothra wrote:We had a thread on this. I'll see if i can find it for you.


here you go

http://www.polanimal.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4369&hilit=rape
FD.
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby johnsmith » 24 Jun 2018, 09:38

Kunning wrote:Right on. And you've just articulated what Greer is, in her own way, getting at.



no she didn't. You might argue that was what Germaine meant. But if so she made a piss poor attempt at explaining herself. Personally I don't think Germaine is that stupid.
FD.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby mothra » 24 Jun 2018, 12:08

johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:We had a thread on this. I'll see if i can find it for you.


here you go

http://www.polanimal.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4369&hilit=rape


Onya John. I was hoping you'd do that. I couldn't find it. Cheers.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby mothra » 24 Jun 2018, 12:14

Kunning wrote:
I've never had a teenager do counselling, and this one's no different.


I don't understand why they have a choice. High risk kids with histories of trauma should be surrounded by our very best counsellors.

And care workers should be freed up to do all of the million things they need to do.

But Headspace is very much more than counselling. They're doing magnificent work. I don't understand what good reason stops such strategies being employed for more difficult kids.

I've never thought funding a particularly good excuse.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Auggie » 24 Jun 2018, 12:51

Kunning wrote:Personally, I think we need to stop blaming things for suicide. Rape doesn't cause suicide. War doesn't cause suicide. Online bullying or not being allowed to marry your same-sex partner doesn't cause it either.

Tying a belt round your neck and letting go causes suicide. Michael Hutchence suicided, and he couldn't blame anything at all.

I'm not being unsympathetic, but suicide is someone killing themselves.


Suicide is the result of a person feeling inner powerlessness and hopelessness. All those things to which you alluded can contribute in varying degrees to those feelings.

In a sense, they can indirectly ‘cause’ suicide.

The thing that ultimately drives a person to suicide is the final belief that no one will care or be negatively affected once they’re gone. If you can truly convince yourself of this fact, then that’s it, you’re ready to die
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Kunning » 24 Jun 2018, 13:36

mothra wrote:
Kunning wrote:
I've never had a teenager do counselling, and this one's no different.


I don't understand why they have a choice. High risk kids with histories of trauma should be surrounded by our very best counsellors.

And care workers should be freed up to do all of the million things they need to do.

But Headspace is very much more than counselling. They're doing magnificent work. I don't understand what good reason stops such strategies being employed for more difficult kids.

I've never thought funding a particularly good excuse.


It's not funding. Most adolescents are not ready for counselling. They say it's a waste of time, and it is. They can't sit around talking about their own role in things, they just don't think this way. The best you can get is them telling you what you want to hear.

Headspace is not an option for high-risk kids. Many are turned away as they only provide 10 sessions and that won't help.

Yes, 10 sessions.Headspace is a quick stop-off for the worried well.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Kunning » 24 Jun 2018, 13:51

CaesarAugustus wrote:
Kunning wrote:Personally, I think we need to stop blaming things for suicide. Rape doesn't cause suicide. War doesn't cause suicide. Online bullying or not being allowed to marry your same-sex partner doesn't cause it either.

Tying a belt round your neck and letting go causes suicide. Michael Hutchence suicided, and he couldn't blame anything at all.

I'm not being unsympathetic, but suicide is someone killing themselves.


Suicide is the result of a person feeling inner powerlessness and hopelessness. All those things to which you alluded can contribute in varying degrees to those feelings.

In a sense, they can indirectly ‘cause’ suicide.

The thing that ultimately drives a person to suicide is the final belief that no one will care or be negatively affected once they’re gone. If you can truly convince yourself of this fact, then that’s it, you’re ready to die


Oh, I know. We have a high suicide rate because we're lonely. I blame our alienation from the means of production.

But bullying, unemployment, weight-issues, poverty - none of them in themselves is a cause. Not being able to afford a new dress for the party on Friday night is not a cause for suicide. Not being allowed to marry a partner you don't even have is not going to cause suicide. Many of the things we're so desperate to do to fit in are mindless drudgery.

If more people were more comfortable with being losers, we'd have less suicide.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Auggie » 24 Jun 2018, 14:10

Kunning wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
Kunning wrote:Personally, I think we need to stop blaming things for suicide. Rape doesn't cause suicide. War doesn't cause suicide. Online bullying or not being allowed to marry your same-sex partner doesn't cause it either.

Tying a belt round your neck and letting go causes suicide. Michael Hutchence suicided, and he couldn't blame anything at all.

I'm not being unsympathetic, but suicide is someone killing themselves.


Suicide is the result of a person feeling inner powerlessness and hopelessness. All those things to which you alluded can contribute in varying degrees to those feelings.

In a sense, they can indirectly ‘cause’ suicide.

The thing that ultimately drives a person to suicide is the final belief that no one will care or be negatively affected once they’re gone. If you can truly convince yourself of this fact, then that’s it, you’re ready to die


Oh, I know. We have a high suicide rate because we're lonely. I blame our alienation from the means of production.

But bullying, unemployment, weight-issues, poverty - none of them in themselves is a cause. Not being able to afford a new dress for the party on Friday night is not a cause for suicide. Not being allowed to marry a partner you don't even have is not going to cause suicide. Many of the things we're so desperate to do to fit in are mindless drudgery.

If more people were more comfortable with being losers, we'd have less suicide.


It’s a bit more complicated than ‘not being able to buy that new dress’, Kunning. It’s a more subtle and sinister feeling of hopelessness. Not being employed or failing job after job are the actual indirect causes of suicide.

On the last point, I kind of agree with what you say, in that, people should be more accepting of their own failures; but that’s easier said then done, particularly when we live a society where society has become very mcdonalized.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Kunning » 24 Jun 2018, 14:52

I think you'll find the poorest societies - and this varies - have the lowest levels of suicide. These places have the ability to build resilience, but also, people there are able to accept their fate. No point grumbling if you're an untouchable, you're never going to become the next president of General Motors.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby pinkeye » 24 Jun 2018, 21:58

Kunning wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
Kunning wrote:Personally, I think we need to stop blaming things for suicide. Rape doesn't cause suicide. War doesn't cause suicide. Online bullying or not being allowed to marry your same-sex partner doesn't cause it either.

Tying a belt round your neck and letting go causes suicide. Michael Hutchence suicided, and he couldn't blame anything at all.

I'm not being unsympathetic, but suicide is someone killing themselves.


Suicide is the result of a person feeling inner powerlessness and hopelessness. All those things to which you alluded can contribute in varying degrees to those feelings.

In a sense, they can indirectly ‘cause’ suicide.

The thing that ultimately drives a person to suicide is the final belief that no one will care or be negatively affected once they’re gone. If you can truly convince yourself of this fact, then that’s it, you’re ready to die


Oh, I know. We have a high suicide rate because we're lonely. I blame our alienation from the means of production.

But bullying, unemployment, weight-issues, poverty - none of them in themselves is a cause. Not being able to afford a new dress for the party on Friday night is not a cause for suicide. Not being allowed to marry a partner you don't even have is not going to cause suicide. Many of the things we're so desperate to do to fit in are mindless drudgery.

If more people were more comfortable with being losers, we'd have less suicide.


It is indeed a state of mind. :bgrin
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby pinkeye » 24 Jun 2018, 22:10

Not referring to perceptions of rape, there, sorry.

Bit off - Topic, but re Greer..? She has made a very broad claim, which seems based on a certain cynicism about people. Including herself.

Reference to her own experience... she seems to take blame for it, so she doesn't see it as rape.
And she has the arrogance to suggest this is how it is most of the time.

I do not agree.


When a woman is being raped, she is never in any doubt.

Its the shitfight that comes after that remains the issue.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby mothra » 24 Jun 2018, 22:42

Kunning wrote:It's not funding. Most adolescents are not ready for counselling. They say it's a waste of time, and it is. They can't sit around talking about their own role in things, they just don't think this way. The best you can get is them telling you what you want to hear.

Headspace is not an option for high-risk kids. Many are turned away as they only provide 10 sessions and that won't help.

Yes, 10 sessions.Headspace is a quick stop-off for the worried well.


Not even all adults are suited to one on one counselling let alone angry kids. I'm suggesting a more holistic approach, which is very much about funding and resources.

Currently, i thinkprofessional burnout for people working with kids is around 3 years on average less influenced by the horrors the workers are exposeed to and more related to over-burden, under-representation, under-staffing and lack of resources.

In my utopia, counsellors and youth workers would be ever-present in tandem; the counsellors working on client-focused rapport building and the youth workers then being freed up to do all of the million things they need to do without fear of alienating kids by enforcing consequence.

You said our girl feared most being held accountable. I would say it's what she's screaming out for. She's looking for scaffolding. She's in free-fall.

I
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby mothra » 24 Jun 2018, 22:46

As for Headspace and the 10 visits, you've gotta be pretty lucky to pull that off. It's usually 6. 10 with a mental health plan ... in this state anyway.


It's not their one on one counselling that so impresses me though. It's all the other stuff they do. They really get behind the kid.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Kunning » 25 Jun 2018, 10:13

mothra wrote:As for Headspace and the 10 visits, you've gotta be pretty lucky to pull that off. It's usually 6. 10 with a mental health plan ... in this state anyway.


It's not their one on one counselling that so impresses me though. It's all the other stuff they do. They really get behind the kid.


Sure, Mother, but my point is this is just one example of what Greer describes as bad sex, not rape.

Look at all the resources that go into these "crimes". The uniforms, the detectives, the courts, the hospitals and JIRT units. This is where our resourcing has ended up: "protecting" 15 year old girls from their own behaviour.

The police and everybody else are fed up with it, but they just carry on. So many crimes that are investigated as sexual assault matters fit this girl's story perfectly. As the cops always say, they don't have time to follow up with all this krap, they want to catch the bad guys.
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Re: Germaine Greer: 'Most rape is just bad sex'

Postby Miranda » 25 Jun 2018, 11:17

mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
Kunning wrote: I agree. Many things now called rape are just bad sex


nope, sex without consent is called rape. Doesn't matter if it's good sex or not


What he said.


'The sex was good, But because I said 'No', I've brought rape charges against her.'

John and Mothra, I think there is more to rape than issues relating to consent. There needs to be forced compliance.
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