Alright Augie ... i'll play

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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 04 Feb 2018, 23:37

Ok, let's try another angle to this. Let's look at an alternative history scenario in which World War 2 didn't happen and the Nazi regime was in power in Germany, and continued to be in power until the present day. Let's say that after Hitler died, the Nazi Party took a different turn and moderated its ideology (think of China): it liberalized the economy, increased media outlets, etc. During this time, there have been radical extremists who have been committing acts of terror (suicide bombings) across the world (and in Germany) in the name of Hitler and his ideology. Now, when all these attacks are committed, the Nazi Regime condemns these attacks and shuns violence (as they have for decades since Hitler's death). They say: "these people are not Nazis, they are extremists." (the same rhetoric that Muslims say today). Now, imagine we're talking about Nazi terrorism in this alternative reality on Polanimal, you would essentially be stating the claim that these extremists have nothing to do with Nazism, and that Nazism is a peaceful ideology; whereas I would be arguing that it isn't because I would look at Mein Kampf and the actions of Hitler as the fundamentals of Nazism.

The reason why we condemn Nazism (and rightfully so) and deem it as an evil ideology is because of the devastation it reaped across the world. We obliterated Nazism and Fascism in World War 2, but Fascism could've easily been sustained if those in power had played their cards right. ISIS isn't as much of a threat to the world as Nazi Germany because it doesn't have the industrial power behind it. It isn't engaging in total war. But, imagine if it did have the industrial base behind it, it could reap havoc, and we would have no choice but to obliterate it. What's happening is that the attacks are here and there, and affect a small group of people, which means it isn't enough for countries to do anything about it. In this sense, the Islamists are smart, because they know that if they go too far, then their whole project would collapse, as it did for Hitler.
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby MilesAway » 05 Feb 2018, 01:52

If the islamic terrorism of today is a resurgence of the hashhashin of circa 12th century then I wouldn't be underestimating their resourcefulness.

For instance: the internet didn't exist back during Hitlers days and if you couple that with the fact Hitler actually predicted terrorism as the new warfare then I think it would be a serious mistake to underestimate the seriousness of this threat.

You do of course acknowledge this at the end of your statement by saying that, like any effective virus, it has learnt not to kill too fast so it can spread.
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby johnsmith » 05 Feb 2018, 08:37

i don't know why you keep pretending nazism and islam are the same or even similar caesar, they're not even close

you're just looking desperate
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 05 Feb 2018, 15:21

johnsmith wrote:i don't know why you keep pretending nazism and islam are the same or even similar caesar, they're not even close

you're just looking desperate


Can you explain to me why they are they are not the same?
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 05 Feb 2018, 15:23

MilesAway wrote:If the islamic terrorism of today is a resurgence of the hashhashin of circa 12th century then I wouldn't be underestimating their resourcefulness.

For instance: the internet didn't exist back during Hitlers days and if you couple that with the fact Hitler actually predicted terrorism as the new warfare then I think it would be a serious mistake to underestimate the seriousness of this threat.

You do of course acknowledge this at the end of your statement by saying that, like any effective virus, it has learnt not to kill too fast so it can spread.


Yes, but don't you then acknowledge that the Islamists are actually being 'smart' by not spreading too far too fast? In the sense that if they did, then their ideology would be totally obliterated??

Second, Islam terrorism doesn't stem from hashashin; it stems from the teachings and practices of Muhammad. Read the Quran and the Hadith.
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby johnsmith » 05 Feb 2018, 18:57

CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:i don't know why you keep pretending nazism and islam are the same or even similar caesar, they're not even close

you're just looking desperate


Can you explain to me why they are they are not the same?


for starters, one is a political ideology and the other is a religion
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 05 Feb 2018, 19:47

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:i don't know why you keep pretending nazism and islam are the same or even similar caesar, they're not even close

you're just looking desperate


Can you explain to me why they are they are not the same?


for starters, one is a political ideology and the other is a religion


Islam is also a political ideology. It prescribes a way of governing a society. Haven't you heard of Sharia law?
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby johnsmith » 05 Feb 2018, 19:59

CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:i don't know why you keep pretending nazism and islam are the same or even similar caesar, they're not even close

you're just looking desperate


Can you explain to me why they are they are not the same?


for starters, one is a political ideology and the other is a religion


Islam is also a political ideology. It prescribes a way of governing a society. Haven't you heard of Sharia law?


i've yet to hear from all the people complaining about sharia law exactly what it is they think Sharia is .... maybe you can surprise me and answer that question.

Islam can be a political ideology,(as can any religion). But that doesn't necessarily make it so. there are many secular islamic nations.
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 05 Feb 2018, 22:13

johnsmith wrote:i've yet to hear from all the people complaining about sharia law exactly what it is they think Sharia is .... maybe you can surprise me and answer that question.


Sharia law is based on the rulings of various Islamic scholars according to the Sunnah of Muhammad. It includes things like: allowing for polygamy, inheritance laws; women's testimony being worth four over a man's two; etc. Think of Saudi Arabia and Iran as being examples of countries that have Sharia law.

johnsmith wrote:Islam can be a political ideology,(as can any religion).


Christianity and Judaism are not political ideologies and haven't been for hundreds of years. We must look at what's happening now, you know. I don't doubt that maybe 500 years ago, Europe was governed according to Christian law (although it wasn't) but it isn't now.

johnsmith wrote:there are many secular islamic nations.


Corrections: there are many secular 'Muslim-majority' countries. Some of them have a weird hybrid of secular and Islamic law; but don't forget that those States existed because the ruling elite didn't want an Islamic state; they wanted a nation-state. Look at Nasser from Egypt; he shunned Islamic law and even chided it. The Central Asian countries (the Stans) are also secular.

The question is: does Islam prescribe a secular doctrine? The answer is no. That some Muslim-majority countries are secular doesn't mean that Islam doesn't teach theocracy.

Also, many Muslims in Britain want a Sharia state for Britain.

Next??
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby johnsmith » 06 Feb 2018, 08:06

CaesarAugustus wrote:Sharia law is based on the rulings of various Islamic scholars according to the Sunnah of Muhammad. It includes things like: allowing for polygamy, inheritance laws; women's testimony being worth four over a man's two; etc. Think of Saudi Arabia and Iran as being examples of countries that have Sharia law.


your answer to what exactly is sharia law is that it is a set of laws? ohh well at least you tried.
Do you realise that even muslims don't agree on what exactly sharia law is and many don't agree with the interpretations imposed by countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran?

CaesarAugustus wrote:Christianity and Judaism are not political ideologies and haven't been for hundreds of years. We must look at what's happening now, you know.


'school chaplaincy', 'opposition to SSM for religious reasons'. ..... not quite hundreds of years ago. The reason they're not as political as Islam is not because Christianity or Judaism that have decided they aren't political, it's that the population has rejected them.

CaesarAugustus wrote:Corrections: there are many secular 'Muslim-majority' countries

you're re-defining 'Islamic nations' to suit your argument because to admit otherwise undermines your whole argument .

CaesarAugustus wrote:Also, many Muslims in Britain want a Sharia state for Britain.

As many christians and jews want our laws to more evenly match whats in the bible or Torah
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby mothra » 06 Feb 2018, 14:18

CaesarAugustus wrote:
mothra wrote:And, he's a Muslim.


Yes, and he's conceded that he is limited in how he can interpret the Quran and the textual traditions of Islam.


I think you have significant problems understanding what Gandalf actually says.



mothra wrote:But you'd prefer to undermine his existence in deference to nasty dictatorships that happen to share a single commonality with him.


How am I undermining his 'existence' by criticizing an ideology to which he subscribes?? I believe his religion is a totalitarian, militant ideology. Shouldn't I criticize the ideology?[/quote]

By comparing his religion, which as i have been endevouring to lead tou to understand, infuses him with a higher standard of ethics, compassion and altruism than pretty much anyone on Ozpol with perhaps the most repugnant ideology to ever surface.
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby MilesAway » 08 Feb 2018, 15:59

CaesarAugustus wrote:
MilesAway wrote:If the islamic terrorism of today is a resurgence of the hashhashin of circa 12th century then I wouldn't be underestimating their resourcefulness.

For instance: the internet didn't exist back during Hitlers days and if you couple that with the fact Hitler actually predicted terrorism as the new warfare then I think it would be a serious mistake to underestimate the seriousness of this threat.

You do of course acknowledge this at the end of your statement by saying that, like any effective virus, it has learnt not to kill too fast so it can spread.


Yes, but don't you then acknowledge that the Islamists are actually being 'smart' by not spreading too far too fast? In the sense that if they did, then their ideology would be totally obliterated??

Second, Islam terrorism doesn't stem from hashashin; it stems from the teachings and practices of Muhammad. Read the Quran and the Hadith.

Are you trying to tell the world where islamic terrrorism spreads from?
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 15 Feb 2018, 13:16

Ok, so after some research into this issue. I will make the following distinction:

1) Islam is a religion.

2) Islamism is political Islam.

It's certainly possible for people like Gandalf to be Muslim on a spiritual level and shun the politics of the religion. But, many Muslims subscribe to the Islamist project.

Islamism is equivalent to Nazism.
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 15 Feb 2018, 13:17

MilesAway wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
MilesAway wrote:If the islamic terrorism of today is a resurgence of the hashhashin of circa 12th century then I wouldn't be underestimating their resourcefulness.

For instance: the internet didn't exist back during Hitlers days and if you couple that with the fact Hitler actually predicted terrorism as the new warfare then I think it would be a serious mistake to underestimate the seriousness of this threat.

You do of course acknowledge this at the end of your statement by saying that, like any effective virus, it has learnt not to kill too fast so it can spread.


Yes, but don't you then acknowledge that the Islamists are actually being 'smart' by not spreading too far too fast? In the sense that if they did, then their ideology would be totally obliterated??

Second, Islam terrorism doesn't stem from hashashin; it stems from the teachings and practices of Muhammad. Read the Quran and the Hadith.

Are you trying to tell the world where islamic terrrorism spreads from?


So, you deny that there is a 'connecting tissue' between certain tenets of Islam and terrorism?

When it's a right-wing terrorist, it's all of sudden a huge condemnation of Nazism or Fascism; but when it's Islamic terrorism it's all of a sudden 'politics, socio-economic factors' etc. Which is it? Either all terrorism is non-ideological, or it is ideological??
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby johnsmith » 15 Feb 2018, 14:13

CaesarAugustus wrote:When it's a right-wing terrorist, it's all of sudden a huge condemnation of Nazism or Fascism;


EXACTLY ... they condemn Nazism and fascism, not right wingers everywhere. There is a clear distinction even though nazism and fascism share common tenets with 'right wingers' .

Perhaps you should apply a similar distinction between Islamic Extremism and Islam
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 15 Feb 2018, 18:57

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:When it's a right-wing terrorist, it's all of sudden a huge condemnation of Nazism or Fascism;


EXACTLY ... they condemn Nazism and fascism, not right wingers everywhere. There is a clear distinction even though nazism and fascism share common tenets with 'right wingers' .

Ok, I will make a distinction between Islam and Islamism.
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby johnsmith » 15 Feb 2018, 19:38

CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:When it's a right-wing terrorist, it's all of sudden a huge condemnation of Nazism or Fascism;


EXACTLY ... they condemn Nazism and fascism, not right wingers everywhere. There is a clear distinction even though nazism and fascism share common tenets with 'right wingers' .

Ok, I will make a distinction between Islam and Islamism.


no, I said Islam and Islamic extremism .... Not islamism.
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 15 Feb 2018, 19:47

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:When it's a right-wing terrorist, it's all of sudden a huge condemnation of Nazism or Fascism;


EXACTLY ... they condemn Nazism and fascism, not right wingers everywhere. There is a clear distinction even though nazism and fascism share common tenets with 'right wingers' .

Ok, I will make a distinction between Islam and Islamism.


no, I said Islam and Islamic extremism .... Not islamism.


Do you know what Islamism is?
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby johnsmith » 15 Feb 2018, 20:11

CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:When it's a right-wing terrorist, it's all of sudden a huge condemnation of Nazism or Fascism;


EXACTLY ... they condemn Nazism and fascism, not right wingers everywhere. There is a clear distinction even though nazism and fascism share common tenets with 'right wingers' .

Ok, I will make a distinction between Islam and Islamism.


no, I said Islam and Islamic extremism .... Not islamism.


Do you know what Islamism is?


I read the definition you put out on ozpol
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 15 Feb 2018, 20:19

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:When it's a right-wing terrorist, it's all of sudden a huge condemnation of Nazism or Fascism;


EXACTLY ... they condemn Nazism and fascism, not right wingers everywhere. There is a clear distinction even though nazism and fascism share common tenets with 'right wingers' .

Ok, I will make a distinction between Islam and Islamism.


no, I said Islam and Islamic extremism .... Not islamism.


Do you know what Islamism is?


I read the definition you put out on ozpol


Islamism is political Islam: the desire to impose Islam over society. Do you agree with Islamism? Should Australia be an Islamist state?
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby Vulcan » 15 Feb 2018, 20:27

Nazism: the 'reflex' action of Germans that was brought upon by 2000 years of Judaism saying "The only way to God is through us".
Hence the pun "What was Jesus's last words to his Jewish people from upon the cross?" Answer: "Wait till my little brother Hitler get's yas!"
So what goes around, comes around.
Judaism created the 'cause' long ago and Nazism was the 'effect' or the backlash when the USA 'replaced' the 'way to God' from Judaism.
Nazism was the act of 'breaking the cross' (aka Swaztika) and yet 'holding on' to the 'Religious' aspect of Germany.
Sort of like a Supernova effect.
Now - as you see, Germany 'released' using Religion from the Middle-East as an empowerment.
They let the 'ring' go, so to speak.

...now it's France's turn in regards to the last throws of a worn out Islamic 'Empire'. As you see - Britain has 'stepped back' (Brexit) from the responsibility and so will other European nations. Leaving France out in front to 'man up' if it thinks its 'European' and not a subject of Middle-Eastern Religion.

The Moslems will do to the French (for their 'betrayal')
what the Germans did to the Jews.
...it's going to be a bloodbath massacre!
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby johnsmith » 15 Feb 2018, 20:57

CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
johnsmith wrote:


EXACTLY ... they condemn Nazism and fascism, not right wingers everywhere. There is a clear distinction even though nazism and fascism share common tenets with 'right wingers' .

Ok, I will make a distinction between Islam and Islamism.


no, I said Islam and Islamic extremism .... Not islamism.


Do you know what Islamism is?


I read the definition you put out on ozpol


Islamism is political Islam: the desire to impose Islam over society. Do you agree with Islamism? Should Australia be an Islamist state?



I believe in democracy .... as it stands, Australia will never be an islamic state.
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 15 Feb 2018, 21:07

I believe in democracy .... as it stands, Australia will never be an islamic state.


How do you know?
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby johnsmith » 16 Feb 2018, 00:07

CaesarAugustus wrote:
I believe in democracy .... as it stands, Australia will never be an islamic state.


How do you know?


educated guess.


But If at some point I'm wrong, you can come back and tell me.
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Re: Alright Augie ... i'll play

Postby CaesarAugustus » 16 Feb 2018, 18:27

johnsmith wrote:
CaesarAugustus wrote:
I believe in democracy .... as it stands, Australia will never be an islamic state.


How do you know?


educated guess.


But If at some point I'm wrong, you can come back and tell me.


Ok, let's assume that at some point in the future, Australia has a Muslim population of 15%. If at least half of those 15% don't integrate into society and support the Islamist project, and assuming that Australia's population is about 40 million, that is about 3 million people. If those 3 million people are organized, and make up some important political constituencies, they could have some influence over the political process. Whilst it won't result in sharia law, it could result in changing attitudes toward ideas such as freedom of speech, etc.

In Canada recently, there was a Muslim-Canadian MP who introduced a Bill to criminalize criticism of Islam. Why did she do it? Because she had a large Muslim constituency who pressured her to pass the law. Now, it didn't become law, and instead a resolution was passed in the Parliament; but it shows that MPs are being subject to their demands of their constituencies, particularly if those constituents are migrants.

It is not unreasonable to predict that politicians will be politicians and attempt to appease their constituents. If a large constituency consisted of Islamists, then more MPs would be compelled (although they may not personally agree with it) to support erosions of existing institutions.
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