Gardening

For chatting about non-political topics.

Hot topic: The perils of exercise, Lapidary, food, gardening, brewing & Gallipoli/Anzac Day.

Special feature: WWIi Operation Manna/Chowhound.
.

Open to guest posting.

Moderator: johnsmith

Forum rules
The rules for this board are in the Charter of Moderation. Off Topic is for fairly serious discussion of things other than politics and current affair.

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 04 Aug 2018, 08:22

Can do it, grow to 3m high, 3-4m wide foliage. Need one more deep rip perhaps.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 05 Aug 2018, 17:20

HBS Guy wrote:Yeah. I got the planning a bit wrong—relied on the nursery website, was misleading as far as cherries go.

Going to ink in the positions of the cider apple trees, then, on tracing paper over that try some alternatives for the cherries, even have some more deep ripping done, $$$ but what can you do? Grow the cherries like the cider apple trees but a bit smaller, one option.



Having the planning so good you only got 'a bit wrong' is very good.
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 05 Aug 2018, 18:14

I have learned NOT to rely on nursery websites!

I am going to draw up the Final Solution! errrr ehehehehehe the final planting plan.

I have one sour cherry tree. It is self fertile but is a different genera or family to sweet cherries. It is also a bit smaller than sweet cherries. Cherry pollen is light enough to be spread by wind, so the Stella cherry needs to be upwind of the other sweet cherries.

Hmmm maybe merge cider apple and cherry trees? Some cider apples into rows 4 & 5? Cherries into rows 2 & 3? Hmmmm
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 07 Aug 2018, 12:09

I will get one more deep rip done and more ploughing/rotary hoeing.

That will move Row 4 up a metre towards back of block. That means rows 4 & 5 are 3m apart and by keeping the cherry trees small (3m high) can have 2 rows with cherry trees in the southern half of rows 4&5.

Important to keep cherry trees small‚ if you can’t net them you are just feeding the bloody birds!

So from north to south have, in row 4: Kentish sour, Early Burlat, Early Burlat (2 earlies so I can sell to tourists!)
Row 5: Stella (pollinator, is self fertile) Napoleon, Napoleon. (Napoleon pale skinned/fleshed cherry, lots flavor not just sugar.) Napoleon and Early Burlat produce viable pollen so can help pollinate each other and both can be pollinated by Stella so bloom at pretty much same time I presume (more checking :grn )

Chooks running under the trees, part of biological control. Can restrict where they scratch by putting some chicken wire on the ground. Fresh eggs {drool}
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 07 Aug 2018, 14:28

Sounds professionally set up
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 07 Aug 2018, 15:32

The amount of contradictory info I have had thrown at me :OMG :OMG

Contacted Cider Group. Yup, this and that tree etc all good.

Bought “that” tree, asked re pollinators (it is triploid) and “Oh my god, you bought Bulmers Norman, very rough tannins blah blah blah”

So now have 12 including four Yarlington Mill, apparently a top cider apple. Just hope it is that in my soil. Another one, Kingston Black I might sell or ditch, supposed to be great, mediocre and rather susceptible to disease.

All this was cheap to do, just on paper. One more bit of deep ripping and will see if he can dig some swales, putting the dug up soil on the five rows. Involves like $200 just for travelling which kills so will get him to do as much as possible while he is there and I don’t fancy digging swales with pick and shovel!

But I reckon I can have my cellar so that will work well with storing apples, booze (cider, mead, beer) and preserves as well as root veges, bought wine etc. Cellar under kitchen which is next to 4m x 4m verandah where I can mill and press apples, brew beer. Be good!

When all done, sit in conservatory, eat while sipping some of my own cider with apple butter made from my own apples. Pizza nights with pizza cooked in my brick woodfired oven.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 07 Aug 2018, 16:17

yes, a machine will do better swales than you will do with a pick
Better to put your efforts in the planning and thinking.

What is 'mill and press' apples?

I have started to brew beer at home. Not very successfully.
Seem to get different ideas from different people. Onto my 3rd brew now.
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 07 Aug 2018, 16:35

Grapes you can load into a basket press and press away but try doing that with apples and you will get hardly any juice. So apples are milled first, turned into pieces the diameter of a 5¢ piece, then the pieces are pressed.

If you are into making beer I can help—I was a HBS Guy for 8 years and a fullmash brewer before then. Fullmash means I can brew starting with just malted grain, hops, water and yeast. Also some unmalted ingredients etc. And formulate my own recipes.

My advice to you is: learn to boil some wort! With a can of kit buy say 750g light dry malt extract plus 250g dextrose. Dissolve in 2L cold water (MUST be cold) and bring to a boil. Good high heat, vigorous boil in big pot—be there to stir, blow, squirt cold water as the wort tries to climb out the pan, bit like boiling milk. The second time you can add, say, 15g of hop pellets.

You do that and you will start loving the beer you brew!
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 07 Aug 2018, 20:29

ah. so after milling and pressing you make cider from it ?

I am doing not so well using malt extracts. Doubt doing it all from scratch is ever on my horizon.
On the can it says 25 degrees, so I made a 25 degree digitally controlled enclosure. Tasted ...... not good.
Had about 4 good bottles from 1 and 1/2 brews so far.

Other people say 20 degrees, I am trying that temp this time.
unless it is a marked improvement, I might give up .
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 07 Aug 2018, 20:35

18°C is better. Buy a proper yeast and make sure you aerate the wort properly—pour in the cold water from as big a height as you can manage.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 08 Aug 2018, 08:23

HBS Guy wrote:18°C is better. Buy a proper yeast and make sure you aerate the wort properly—pour in the cold water from as big a height as you can manage.


18 degrees ......... Darn, one of my mates who has brewed for a long time said 'even under 18 degrees is better'.'
So you are both in agreeance there.
I aerate the wort by splashing the water in. Probably not as much as I could though.
I use the yeast that comes with the can. Are those ok ? It starts working within an hour at 20 degrees, as seen by the airlock.
So, you would think 25 degrees is far too hot and will give a substandard result ?
This is 25 degrees day and night, so the 'over temp' effects will really be bad.

I found the PET bottles to be unsatisfactory. Am using the 'coopers' tallies, much better. Give the right 'PPsssssssttttt ' sound when they are opened.

Hey, at least I know what 'wort' means now !!
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 08 Aug 2018, 09:11

Yeah, 18°C is good temp for ales.

Fermenting at higher temperatures you get unwanted by products from the yeast—it is a living thing after all.

Pour in the cold water from a height. You should see inches of foam in the fermenter in first 2-3 days after pitching yeast.

Fermenter—this must be scrupulously clean. Hardest part is the tap. Unscrew it from fermenter and pull it apart then clean the parts not forgetting to clean the bunghole where the tap goes. Glass is good—make sure the wort has fermented, your final gravity should be about 1/4 of starting gravity and don’t overprime! Bottles must be clean and sanitised: active working yeast can outcompete bacteria but in a bottle the yeast isn’t active.

For the same reason I do suggest buying a proper 12g sachet of yeast, start with a nice big yeast population and your brews will be clean and fully fermented.

If you are making beer with a can kit and kilo dextrose—you will make anemic beers. So make some wort! 750g dry malt extract to 250g dextrose is a good mix. Dark malt extract for stouts, wheat malt extract for wheat beers, include 250g Muntons amber malt extract to enrich your beers.

Once all that is going good consider racking and keeping your fermented beer in a “cube” in a fridge for a couple of weeks. Cleans the beer up and sees more yeast drop out so you can pour nice clear homebrew to serve with pride!

Adding some hop pellets gives your beer a nice nose and hop flavor—you are brewing!
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 08 Aug 2018, 11:02

Buying a proper yeast gives you a bigger choice of yeast.

Wheat beer must be fermented with a wheat beer yeast. You want an ale to be really clean and clear—Nottingham yeast will ferment as an ale yeast down to 14°C, ferments it quite dry then drops out beautifully. Nice crisp ale, pours really clear—has only a tiny bit of yeast on the bottom of the bottle and that clings to the glass. Doesn’t put much yeasty flavors in the beer—you need to load your beer with hop and malt flavor!

Windsor ale yeast from the same yeast farmer, Lallemand, stops working much below 18°C, leaves some unfermented sugars and doesn’t drop out well. Puts lovely fruity ale esters into your beer.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 08 Aug 2018, 11:03

Phew, I may be headed in the right direction then. Overall.
Hopefully this 20 degree batch will be much improved.
The first one was in PET bottles and I did not drain the sanatizer out of the bottles well before bottling

I do not get inches of foam in the fermenter. Will improve that. At that stage there is only water and can of malt extract in there.
2 shops have sold me a bag of dry dextrose/malt mix as well as the can. I am happy to buy that, if it makes better beer.
Their mix was mainly dry dextrose, some dry malt. About 750 gms dextrose, 250 gms malt. Malt was light or dark or a combination of both.
This is in addition to the can of malt extract.

To load the fermenter should I put in some water, then the can of malt extract, mix that up, add the bag of dextrose/malt, the rest of the water aerating well, THEN the yeast ?
The can of malt extract comes with a sachet of yeast, is that ok ?


Fermenter - thanks. I did remove the tap and seal there and O-Ring in the lid. Sanatized them all, rinsed with tap water then reassembled it all.
There was grime in the thread in the fermenter. I would not have seen it had I not removed the tap.

I prefer a malty beer rather than a hoppy one. I don't let the beer age for long enough.
My thinking is if I want a drink and have some bottled beer that is not ready yet I may as well drink that rather than buy some from a bottle store.

Have to go.
Found some interesting things on the bottle sanatizing, will post that later.
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 08 Aug 2018, 11:23

Good!

If you like a malty beer you need to put more malt in! 750g dry malt, 250g malt.

Or, easier—one can kit, one 1500g can liquid malt extract.

You need to dissolve the can kit—2-3L boiling water is the go there, 4L with can kit and can liquid malt. stir well, add the cold water causing lots foaming, pitch yeast—doesn’t matter if the wort is a bit warmer than 18°C then.

On the way. Can liquid malt is easy and gives a richer, maltier beer—but you have limited input. Boiling a bit of wort made from dry malt and maybe some hops gives you scope—you can steep some crystal or roasted malt etc.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 08 Aug 2018, 12:51

Thanks. This is all slowly seeping in.
Will look for Nottingham yeast.


I used one of these 'liquid ambers' in brew #2 as well as the can of coopers dark ale malt extract.
Image

Used a lighter version of that in brew #3. Just not as much dark malt. It is coopers sparkling ale.


I'll wait till I have this 'simple' process repeatable and very good before considering any change to a more personalised method.
Are 'campben' tablets any good ? We have awful water here. Chloramines and/or chlorine.



Regards bottle sanatizing, next bottling day I will try 2 methods.
1/ Clean with hot water and bottle brush, rinse with sanatizer, invert, rinse with cooled boiled water, invert to drip dry.

2/ Clean with hot water, rinse with cooled boiled water, leave inverted in sun for a few days.
I did a temp test on that, temp inside bottle was 49.6 degrees on a mild Queensland day.
On a hotter day temp will be more, a high temp for hours will kill most bacteria I think.


By the time brew #2 will be ready I will have drunk about 1/2 of it .
Am guessing, that would help too.
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 08 Aug 2018, 13:53

............. Finally you can reduce esters by properly oxiginating your wort. During the growth phase, the yeast will actually consume ACOA (above) which is a precursor of ester production to reproduce. However this only continues until the yeast run out of oxygen. So if you properly oxygenate your wort it will reduce overall ester production. Conversely if you under-oxygenate your wort it will actually enhance ester production in the finished beer. ...............


http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/03/07/esters-in-beer-brewing/



Gosh - even the 2nd quote makes sense now !!
......... Fermentation Temperature

A second way to control ester production is by controlling the fermentation temperature. Higher temperatures in fermentation result in rapid yeast growth, more AAT and more ester production. This is why, in general, ale yeast produces more ester than lager yeast. So if you are brewing an estery English ale you might want to target the high end of the yeast’s fermentation temperature.

If you are brewing a style such as lager where you want few esters, be sure to ferment at appropriate lager temperatures. One common beginner mistake is to attempt fermentation of a lager at room temperature which will result in a fruity lager – not what you were shooting for at all. ..........
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 08 Aug 2018, 15:16

Think the penny is dropping.

If I bought a can of this and this
.............. Coopers Original Dark Ale ..............


but throw away that yeast and use
........... LL Nottingham – Neutral Ale Yeast ..............


And add
........ Dark Brew Booster (1kg). 500g Dark Malt, 250g Powdered Corn Syrup, 250g Dextrose ............


that might be ok ?
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 08 Aug 2018, 16:17

OK, except I am not a fan of dried corn syrup but try it. I am a fan of more malt, just need 20-25% dextrose with dried malt extract or it gets gluggy.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 08 Aug 2018, 16:24

Phew, I am often slow to learn. Then the pieces all fall together.


The nottingham yeast looks good.

.............. In Lallemand’s Standard Conditions Wort at 20°C (68°F) Nottingham yeast exhibits:
Vigorous fermentation that can be completed in 4 days
High Attenuation and High Flocculation
Neutral to slightly fruity and estery flavor and aroma
The optimal temperature range for Nottingham yeast when producing traditional styles is 10°C
(50°F)* to 22°C (72°F)

*at lower temperature it is possible to ferment lager-style beers in all-malt wort within 9 days
Fermentation rate, fermentation time and degree of attenuation are dependent on inoculation density, yeast handling, fermentation temperature and nutritional quality of the wort. ..............


http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/product-details/nottingham-high-performance-ale-yeast/



I read a few people who said ........ 'nottingham yeast is a beast and works very vigorously' ...........
Probably like me, they ran it at 20+ degrees. Set this one at 16 degrees and it should be very nice.
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 08 Aug 2018, 17:18

Yup.

Last few years of brewing I used liquid yeasts: make a starter, pitch, rack beer off, pitch another, stronger and darker, wort on the yeast cake and then do that once more. $18 for a sachet yeast, 4 beers out of it, $4.50 a batch which is fine. Where you might be able to find a dozen distinct dry yeasts just Wyeastlabs (Wyeast) has like 3 dozen liquid yeasts and White Labs extends that range a bit.

One weird yeast: WY Saison yeast. Seasonal yeast for a seasonal beer style. Ferments slowly. I pitched it into an unmalted wheat (spelt) heavy wort, racked after 1 week (around GU 1012 into a “cube” that I warm conditioned for a month (in my study, heated by an oilfilled heater, ceiling insulated, heavy curtains drawn over window) and racked to a bottling bucket (a spare clean fermenter) with gravity now 1002—bone dry, a diabetic could drink it!) primed and bottled.

Weird—bone dry yet a HUGE mouthfeel from the proteins in all that spelt!


Just trying to show making beer is a fascinating craft with level after level of fascination.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 08 Aug 2018, 23:37

It'll take me a while to understand that all.
I get the big picture.
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 08 Aug 2018, 23:58

Yeah, basics are simple enough:

1. Scrupulous attention to cleaning and sanitation (and rinsing sanitiser if need be)

2. For malty beers use more malt, less sugar or dried corn syrup (DCS) (don’t need DCS if you are using plenty malt.

3. Good aeration and pitching 12g sachets of good yeast, kept in fridge until needed. Can pitch warm, ferment at 18°C maximum.

4. Let beer ferment out, make sure to take OG & FG, FG OG/4 (so a 50GU beer (OG 1050) should ferment to about 1012–13)

4. Let beer settle, bottle without overpriming.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby HBS Guy » 09 Aug 2018, 00:13

Swales I reckon 600mm wide, 450mm deep between rows 1&2, 2&3, 3&4 and 4&5 with dug up clay dumped on rows 1, 2, 3, 4. Hmm will need another swale on the house side of row 5.

But the dup up clay + weeds dug up will go over the top of all the compost and sheepshit and blood & bone etc I spread out and dug in.

So no swales. Saves me some $$$, always welcome.

Will make mounds where trees will go with some more coarse sand, more compost, biochar and bought good loam. When I add understory plants the mounds will look more like berms. Can dig swales at my leisure once I am living there, buy a rotary hoe, run it 3-4 times shovelling the clay to widen the mounds a bit.
Abbott & Co are going to cause the mother and father of all recessions—be prepared!
User avatar
HBS Guy
Tractors to Australia
 
Posts: 47453
Joined: 27 Oct 2009, 15:37

Re: Gardening

Postby Sprintcyclist » 09 Aug 2018, 08:24

Why the swales between rows of trees?
Sprintcyclist
Jack Russell
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 08:14
spamone: Animal

PreviousNext

Return to Off Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron